EndersShadow Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I need some help talking through some options I have. Right now I have a Stereo Integrity HT-15 D2 sub in a DIYSoundGroup Ported Cube 15 (4 cubic foot tune to 21hz) driven by a Dayton SA-1000 (some pics of my setup and the sub here). I am using a SVS AS-EQ1 to flatten things out. I just ordered a Cross Spectrum Sound calibrated UMIK-1 Mic as the UMIK-1 mic I had originally with my MiniDSP was sold with it before I installed the SVS unit. I'm hoping to increase the SPL of my setup specifically lower down (sub 20hz). Here is where I am struggling. Option 1: I can upgrade my driver from the HT-15 to the HST-15. It will fit in my existing box. It can handle all the wattage my amp can throw at it and still want more. It also can handle turning OFF the subsonic filter on my amp (which starts at 17hz). I do have to watch the gain on the amp as the sub WILL hit XMech at full gain around 10hz, but I doubt I will get the amp at full gain much if ever. Thats the cheapest option. Option 2: Upgrade my driver to the HST-15, build a sealed box thats meant for this driver (3 cubic feet seems about right) and then either keep my Dayton amp OR buy a Crown XLS 1500, bridge it and have 1500 watts (I know the likelyhood it will actually put out 1500 watts is low) for the driver. This option costs more, but I could sell my old setup to re-coup some of the additional cost, and I would end up with a driver that basically digs as low as possible. I give up some of the output I'd get from the ported box, but I can make up some if not all of it by adding more power to the box. I'd love some thoughts on this. I realize until I get actual measurements its somewhat moot but I'd love some thoughts. I posted this on a couple other forums but was hoping to get more here since I know Nick posts here as do some other guys with the HST drivers. And lastly I know WinISD is just a tool, but I'm still learning about some of this so I'm wondering for sealed subs, do you need to account for polyfil in the box size? IE if I have a 2 cubic foot box and add 1 cubic foot of polyfil, is it now a 3 cubic foot box, or is the Polyfill just to help stop enclosure resonance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I suggest going sealed if more extension is what you are after. Or build a box with a lower tune. If you can only budget for one sub, then I think the answer must take into account your room size and listening habits. A large room may not be adequately served by a single sealed HST-15 down to 20 Hz at reference level. Running the ported without the HPF isn't going to buy you much. You'll still have the 4th order roll-off, and what sound does come out will be more distorted and compressed, not to mention you'll likely hear a lot more port noise with it. I wouldn't worry too much about the polyfill. To the extent that it changes the resonance of the sealed box, you're using EQ anyway and can correct for it. Once you get to the lower frequencies where you're more likely to encounter performance limits, the differences are much smaller. The biggest issue with going sealed is that you'll likely be tempted to add another sealed sub, and your budget may not accommodate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I suggest going sealed if more extension is what you are after. Or build a box with a lower tune. If you can only budget for one sub, then I think the answer must take into account your room size and listening habits. A large room may not be adequately served by a single sealed HST-15 down to 20 Hz at reference level. Running the ported without the HPF isn't going to buy you much. You'll still have the 4th order roll-off, and what sound does come out will be more distorted and compressed, not to mention you'll likely hear a lot more port noise with it. I wouldn't worry too much about the polyfill. To the extent that it changes the resonance of the sealed box, you're using EQ anyway and can correct for it. Once you get to the lower frequencies where you're more likely to encounter performance limits, the differences are much smaller. The biggest issue with going sealed is that you'll likely be tempted to add another sealed sub, and your budget may not accommodate that. Its not budget as much as WAF will not allow for a second sub. A smaller sealed box MIGHT be viable later on, but honestly I dont think its gonna happen. I get enough SPL with my current sub to shake things in the kitchen (which this room is open to) but I dont get lots of the stuff you feel as I would like. And a lower tuned box isnt in the cards as I lack the skills to DIY the sub and anything bigger would likely mean my death as my wife was not really happy about the size of this box and anything taller would be pushing it. Here is what Audyssey said when it calibrated my existing sub. Its NOT as good as a REW measurement but its the best I have. Now this graph is my existing setup. The sealed driver would be getting more wattage from my Dayton amp, or the Crown and per WinISD it actually models better than my existing sub with the Dayton by a bit and with the bridged Crown there are a couple db's of difference and once you hit 20hz the difference gets a lot more. Here is a crappy iPhone pic of my room so you can see what I'm dealing with (ignore the sub in this pic, its my old Elemental Designs A2-300). As you can see I'm open to the entryway, the dining room, and what you cant see is behind me is the kitchen with a half wall and a opening to walk through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Could you build a single box with dual-opposed HST-15s? That keeps it to one "sub" that may not be much different in size from your current ported sub, but get's you more output, enough to most likely beat the ported sub you have now while having more extension. More amp would help in this case too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Could you build a single box with dual-opposed HST-15s? That keeps it to one "sub" that may not be much different in size from your current ported sub, but get's you more output, enough to most likely beat the ported sub you have now while having more extension. More amp would help in this case too. Hadn't thought about that. That would push the budget a bit BUT it "might" be possible...... Need to graph and see what that would look like. I bet it would be a bad mamma jamma... The ONLY issue I see (beyond the cost) is I have a small kid. The reason my existing sub is downfiring is to keep my daughter from putting toys in the port holes, and it hides the moving driver from her as well. I could do a sonotube and do a dual opposed that way, or go with a top and bottom firing sealed driver. Would that work? I'm totally spitballing on this one as I never thought about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I see an 'endtable' that could easily do double duty as a sub in that pic and whatever that is next to the rocking chair that can easily become 'dual purpose' if done right....downfire them all or do like bosso/nube and dress up the top sub with glass/marble and cancel vibration and the lamp stays still. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I see an 'endtable' that could easily do double duty as a sub in that pic and whatever that is next to the rocking chair that can easily become 'dual purpose' if done right....downfire them all or do like bosso/nube and dress up the top sub with glass/marble and cancel vibration and the lamp stays still. JSS Had that conversation already and lost it badly. The endtable isnt going to be replaced with another sub even if it looks like an endtable. I also cant go duals with one on either side of the L/R speaker either. The thing under the windows is a wicker toy box that we need for all my daughters stuff, as are the other two smaller ottomans on the side of the loveseat. So basically going duals just isnt possible right now as its simply not a fight I am going to win, and in the process I may LOSE my existing sub to the garbage man lol... I just looked at a dual opposed setup in WinISD and honestly it doesnt really do anything more than a single does besides lower driver excursion which was under Xmax to begin with. The Crown XLS 1500 provides 775 watts @ 2 ohms x 2 OR 1550 @ 4 ohms bridged. So from a pure SPL point of view duals dont really do anything for me on that amp. I'd want to stick with either the Crown XLS 1500 or the 2500 as I have a buddy with both and might be able to get him to part with one and under retail by a bit since he picked them both up for amounts I dare not mention as it would cause folks to curse his name (like I did). Please keep the thoughts coming I do appreciate them. I am not AGAINST using another driver but the issues I've noticed are that the Ultimax drivers want a MUCH bigger sealed or ported box that I can give them and most other drivers simply cant hang with the HST ones I've seen, or are so big as to be unrealistic in my room. If I had my way I would simply take the corner my sub is in and build a floor to ceiling LTT box, cover it with drywall, paint it to match the walls and add trim around it to make it look like a part of the house. But that isnt going to happen either. PS I have debated just building a endtable sub and putting it in place and dealing with the wrath. BUT I want to see where I am at with my current sub to see what the HST might improve before I do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Well that sucks. I was going to say multiples simply for Freq Response improvement at more than one seat, not necessarily for SPL. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Well that sucks. I was going to say multiples simply for Freq Response improvement at more than one seat, not necessarily for SPL. JSS Yup, if I could have done that you'd see 2 of the sub I have in this picture instead. I had the cash for dual HT-15's but my wife wouldnt go along with dual subs of that size. "Maybe" if I were to go with dual 11" sealed subs I could make that fly given their small size. However I think I'd be giving up lots of SPL down low to do so. How would I even graph 2 HST-11's since they would each be in their own enclosure. Would I just double up my numbers in WinISD, or do I just do a single to single compare? These would NOT be co-located so I wouldn't be getting a 3db boost from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aijan Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I would advise against Crown XLS (or XLI/XTI) as a sub amp. They have undefeatable subsonic filters which make them unsuitable for sealed subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Weird. I didn't see that in any of the literature. And haven't seen that online at all. What amp would you suggest then? And iNukes are not an option. To noisy or mod the fan and kill the warranty..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aijan Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Crown doesn't talk about the filters in their literature, but if you call them they will confirm their existence. They don't really care about running sealed subs. These amps are for PA use, and 30hz is probably the lowest PA subs are expected to reproduce. Unfortunately I don't know any good sub amps with quiet fans, but someone else will likely guide you in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Yup, if I could have done that you'd see 2 of the sub I have in this picture instead. I had the cash for dual HT-15's but my wife wouldnt go along with dual subs of that size. "Maybe" if I were to go with dual 11" sealed subs I could make that fly given their small size. However I think I'd be giving up lots of SPL down low to do so. How would I even graph 2 HST-11's since they would each be in their own enclosure. Would I just double up my numbers in WinISD, or do I just do a single to single compare? These would NOT be co-located so I wouldn't be getting a 3db boost from that. Sounds like the basement/attic/garage needs to become a 'home theater'. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Sounds like the basement/attic/garage needs to become a 'home theater'. JSS Maybe in the next house. I live in Indiana.... with winter and snow you WANT that garage you bought with the house for your cars. We have 3 bedrooms, for my wife and I + 2 kids. I have a loft but its not really anywhere close to ideal for audio so thats out, as is closing it off (doorway too narrow to be called a bedroom). And then no basement or attic that can be used... So this is all I got so I want to maximize it. What I might end up doing since I've been selling some stuff here lately to build up some funds, is buy a Denon X4100 AVR so I can then sell my SVS AS-EQ1, and my older Integra DTR 5.9 AVR. That would get me enough to buy the HST-15 + a 3 cubic foot sealed box from DIYSoundGroup, and put the two subs head to head and keep the winner, sell the loser to recoup my costs. I think the sealed version will be a better option for the low low stuff and if I build another sub I am going to wire it for speakon and regular binding posts so I can use pro or regular amps. Then I may borrow my buddy's XLS amp just to see how it does head to head with my Dayton SA-1000 amp. But I still need to find a amp that is decently quiet and doesnt have a subsonic filter so I can get the most out of that driver. So we will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 So the mic has come in, but so have my HTPC parts. For the next week I'm going to get my HTPC up and running. Then once installed in the HT I can install REW on it and use the mic better to measure things. In the meantime I installed the newer version of WinISD. Per that program the HST in a sealed box (with the right PEQ) can spec ALMOST the same as the HT-15 in my ported box. These graphs are using my current Dayton SA-1000 amp, but putting the HST-15 in a sealed 3 cubic foot box (I'd buy the DIYSoundGroup one). With a bit of PEQ (the Dayton has one band of PEQ) at 30hz with a boost of 4.5db and a Q of 1 I basically overlap the top of my HT-15 graph, but then DESTROY it sub 20hz. All of this is with the VA under 900 watts and with excursion well within limits. Eventually I'd look for a decent pro amp to replace the Dayton, and either just trust Audyssey XT32 to do its thing (will be upgrading to a Denon X4100 soon) or use a MiniDSP (again) and then Audyssey to ensure it gets as low as it can as flat as it can. Graphs below. These are really low because I set the distance to 10 feet since thats about the distance from the sub to the main seating area. HST-15 in RED, HT-15 in BLACK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 SPL Cone Excursion Amp load Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 Maybe in the next house. I live in Indiana.... with winter and snow you WANT that garage you bought with the house for your cars. We have 3 bedrooms, for my wife and I + 2 kids. I have a loft but its not really anywhere close to ideal for audio so thats out, as is closing it off (doorway too narrow to be called a bedroom). And then no basement or attic that can be used... So this is all I got so I want to maximize it. What I might end up doing since I've been selling some stuff here lately to build up some funds, is buy a Denon X4100 AVR so I can then sell my SVS AS-EQ1, and my older Integra DTR 5.9 AVR. That would get me enough to buy the HST-15 + a 3 cubic foot sealed box from DIYSoundGroup, and put the two subs head to head and keep the winner, sell the loser to recoup my costs. I think the sealed version will be a better option for the low low stuff and if I build another sub I am going to wire it for speakon and regular binding posts so I can use pro or regular amps. Then I may borrow my buddy's XLS amp just to see how it does head to head with my Dayton SA-1000 amp. But I still need to find a amp that is decently quiet and doesnt have a subsonic filter so I can get the most out of that driver. So we will see. In-attic folded horn or IB, firing in through the ceiling. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 In-attic folded horn or IB, firing in through the ceiling. JSS Home Theater on 1st Floor, with loft above it. No access for what you speak without building a 1 story bulkhead which wouldnt fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Man, those are some pretty tough limitations. Good luck. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aj72 Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Wow I didn't realise how tough a wife can be..... I now know how well off I am after seeing this thread Enders. I just took it for granted when another giant box got squeezed into the living room it was met with barely a murmur. Time for flowers I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Man, those are some pretty tough limitations. Good luck. JSS Wow I didn't realise how tough a wife can be..... I now know how well off I am after seeing this thread Enders. I just took it for granted when another giant box got squeezed into the living room it was met with barely a murmur. Time for flowers I think. Yeah it can be a pain sometimes..... I'm hoping if I go with the HST-15 in a sealed box which is quite a bit smaller than my other one, she might let me replace the endtable with one in the future........ I've got a LOT of space to fill so I do know I really do need duals at least, but its just a hard sell.... Dual HST-11's or HST-12's also were/are an option if I am going to totally redo everything I just dont know how deep they will dig which is somewhat the whole point of replacing my current sub.... So I'm likely going to try to get a decent pro amp that could drive multiple HST drivers if I go with a pro amp.. so the only cost to me would be the driver and building the box for the second...... Anyone have good suggestions for a pro amp that doesnt sound like a 747 taking off when its on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted September 12, 2015 Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 Enders sorry if I missed it but how big is your room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 Too Big .... Current Gear list: Speakers: Fronts: Polk LSi 15 w db840 sub modification Center: Polk LSiC Surrounds: Polk LSi F/x dipole bipoles Equipment: Pre-Amp: Integra DTR 5.9 Amp: B&K 200.5 Sub Amp: Dayton SA-1000 TV: Panasonic 60" ST30 Source Gear: WD Live TV + 3 TB Seagate external hard drive (HTPC build in progress to replace) Xbox 360 (hopefully Xbox One arrives via Santa this year) Uverse DVR Squeezebox Classic Misc Gear: Asus EA66 Network Bridge (provides network signal) Netgear 8 port gigabit switch (connects all gear to network) SVS AS-EQ1 ( EQ's sub) APC H15 (all gear BUT amps on this device) Cables: Interconnects: Kimber Kable Hero w Ultraplates (Integra -> B&K) Front 3 Speaker: Kimber Kable 8VS internal bi-wire Surround Speakers: Monoprice 14 gauge HDMI: Audioquest Cinnamon for all sources & TV Optical: Generic (Squeezebox -> Integra) PowerCables: Pangea AC-9 2m (B&K), Pangea AC-9SE 1.5m (Dayton), Pangea AC-14 (Xbox), Pangea AC-14SE (Integra) But what you really want to see, as its a worthless thread without pics right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted September 12, 2015 Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 Well cubic feet or meters would have sufficed but yes pictures are great. Nice room man. That looks like a decent size room. At least 4000cuft open to the upstairs. Not a huge room but not small either. Everything SME and Max have said so far are spot on. You won't get better advice here. You have a number of limitations which to me are crippling to deep bass: can't have more than one box, can't be too big, no room for IB etc. You need either multiples or one/two big ass vented cabs. If you can't do either of those two I honestly would just keep what you have and hope one day you get approval for a 2nd. No way two sealed 15's, even with 4" of throw, will get you lows in that room. Like SME suggested if you could do a DO cab and then add one later that could work, but if that's not even a consideration I would stay ported and try to move it closer to the couch like Max said. Going to the 11's or 12's won't help. Great drivers I'm sure, I have/had some of Nick's drivers, but it's just physics. You need so many drivers to get the spl you need down low and unfortunately what you can do at the time won't get you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted September 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2015 Oh I know lol but as luck would have it I had just posted those pics elsewhere so it was easier to repost here as I don't know what measurements are off the top of my head lol.... I was also in bed and not gonna get up to pull out a tape to measure all those room either heheheh... Yeah I know the 11 or 12s would get swallowed up by the room more than likely. The problem with dual opposed (a single one) is mainly cost and the my daughter (and soon to be second one) poking drivers. I could do a 4 cubic foot sealed dual opposed box but that's about the limit to what I can do and it's above my budget. I was hoping room gain might help boost the down low stuff, but your saying the HST won't gain me much sub 20hz over the HT driver correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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