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Leons

HST18 / HS24

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Wait a second guys, are we forgetting something very important here, the room! I am pretty sure my room gain at 5 and 10 hz makes up for a 20000 watt amp. It takes about 100 times less power at 10hz in my room to hit those outside numbers. I know I can hit some serious numbers with a single Inuke 6000.

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Yah I agree I just think guys rely on Josh's numbers and forget what he uses to get those numbers, and the 24 was in a box that was what 20cuft?? Yes 8 24's would put out some insane numbers but only if they have some good power behind them. The K20 ain't exactly cheap. 8 of Dgage's 24's would be over $20k. Though he does a have working website so thats gotta mean something. ;)

 

I wish one hobby just one would be cheap.  :(

Way over $20000 for 8 Mariana 24s. Or that's one heck of a discount I don't remember agreeing to. :)

 

And I do have a pseudo-working website but I'm redoing it over Christmas as I'm not real happy with the current one. Will finally post some of those professional photos I had taken.

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At least you *have* a working site. It was a jab at a competitor who has yet to provide one. ;)

Haha. True. But said competitor seems to be doing very well regardless. :)

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Yes I'm sure he is. I was just referring to the cost of the subs but that it does make people feel better about purchasing when there's a working website. 

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Yes.. I called Nick for four more… I hope he’s merciful on me..

 

I’ll keep you posted..

best Leon

 

Leon, your thread kind of got buried, but I'd just like to say...

 

You're my hero.

 

Living the dream, man. Your system is going to be awesome! Nothing beats large drivers loafing.

 

I was browsing some of the Legacy speakers at their website, and what do I spy in the lower left corner of a composer's reference system?

Legacy_V_Surround_Speaker_system.jpg

very nice!

 

I recognize that system. You can read the build thread here.

 

How does the HS24 and the FTW-21 compare? Is the HS24 drastically better? Marginally? Or?

 

This fellow had FTW-21s and upgraded to HS-24s. 

 

I guess the larger your room and the more open it is, the less chances of destruction?

 

Speaking from my own experience (as colored by living in a 90+ year old, partly rotten house), going from a small room to a large room: the larger room makes for higher chances of destruction. The walls, floor and ceiling have greater area without support. Think of it as a giant box without bracing: the larger the panels, the worse the flex. When I was borrowing my buddy's measurement mic and did sweeps, I found that there were major mass resonant modes that would show in the frequency response during slow sweeps, peaks where the wall would excite and contribute to the general audio level and dips where the floor would vibrate in visual waves and basically act as a damper. Really quite interesting right up until I was blasting one car competition bass track and started hearing the very particular sound a nail pulling out of old wood and the addition of board on board slapping noises in the floor at which point I decided that was probably enough for the day. That was with just one HS-24 on an old Behringer EP-2500 (before I fried the amp). Eight on big amps would be...interesting.  :blink:  :)

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I saw pics on the AVS forum of someone's staircase cracking and separating from the wall/house due to bass. I forget who it was, maybe N8dogg? I guess the larger your room and the more open it is, the less chances of destruction?

 

 

Good ole P-lock had that going on. I could snap some photos of my third floor ceiling where the sheetrock meets the load bearing wall I had the dual opposed IB manifold mounted in for a brief period. The house has settled a little :D

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Hello All,

 

Regarding my cabinets:

Sorry still no build update of the four HS24 twin cabinets.

The shop is closed for the hollidays, and before I had no time to check in.

They are in the worx... I hope...

The shop opens next week... guess where I will be monday morning...

 

Regarding drivers:

I hope to get in touch with Nick next week for the second batch of 4 HS24's

Than if everything goes well, considering build time and shipping, I (and the neigbours)

should feel single digits with authority approx february...

 

Regarding amps..

Initially I was planning for fp14000 clones to drive the cabs.

However a friend of mine is willing to sell his 4 QSC PL380's for

500 a piece.. a good deal since the amps are like new.

That would give me one channel per driver..

I speciefied my HS24's for 4 ohm.. the PL380 is 2500W per/channel @ 4ohm

Would that be a good match? enough headroom?

 

Regarding ohm's...

The HS24's have two terminals.. how does the wiring work if I want 4 ohm?

Should I use just one terminal? or connect one with the other..?

 

Attached a few pics of the aluminium flanges, port-stops and sewer-duct-ports...

With a nice cold one for scale reference..

 

best regards,

Leon

post-3361-0-57368900-1451506071_thumb.jpg

post-3361-0-78929500-1451506100_thumb.jpg

post-3361-0-84410600-1451506126_thumb.jpg

post-3361-0-40640000-1451506202_thumb.jpg

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Hello All,

 

Regarding my cabinets:

Sorry still no build update of the four HS24 twin cabinets.

The shop is closed for the hollidays, and before I had no time to check in.

They are in the worx... I hope...

The shop opens next week... guess where I will be monday morning...

 

Regarding drivers:

I hope to get in touch with Nick next week for the second batch of 4 HS24's

Than if everything goes well, considering build time and shipping, I (and the neigbours)

should feel single digits with authority approx february...

 

Regarding amps..

Initially I was planning for fp14000 clones to drive the cabs.

However a friend of mine is willing to sell his 4 QSC PL380's for

500 a piece.. a good deal since the amps are like new.

That would give me one channel per driver..

I speciefied my HS24's for 4 ohm.. the PL380 is 2500W per/channel @ 4ohm

Would that be a good match? enough headroom?

 

Regarding ohm's...

The HS24's have two terminals.. how does the wiring work if I want 4 ohm?

Should I use just one terminal? or connect one with the other..?

 

Attached a few pics of the aluminium flanges, port-stops and sewer-duct-ports...

With a nice cold one for scale reference..

 

best regards,

Leon

 

 

Does your friend have any more 380's available? I'll buy them. :o

 

2500 per driver should be a good match. Ports? You are building 8 ported 24's?

 

Wiring...You MUST use both terminals. Drivers will be dual 2ohm. What you want to do is run the + wire into the + on one terminal or coil. Then run a wire from the NEG of the same terminal to the + on the second terminal on the same driver. Connect the NEG wire back to the amp from the NEG terminal on the second set of terminals. This is series wiring so will be 4 ohms. If in doubt internet search series wiring.

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I'm building 4 cabinets with 2 HS24 in each.

 

I wanted to be able to try multiple placement options in my room, So I designed

the cabinets such that I can change the drivers position in the cabinets.. I can mount

the drivers on the small or big side. see post #60.

 

Since I had to design a seal for the side where the drivers are not mounted, I decided

to put some more effort in the design of these seals such that they contain properly blokkable

ports.. Thats what the aluminium flanges and port-stops are fore. Again see post #60.

 

So the cabinet is 2-way convertible:

- the drivers can be converted from one to the other side

- the cabinet can be converted from ported to sealed

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I'm building 4 cabinets with 2 HS24 in each.

 

I wanted to be able to try multiple placement options in my room, So I designed

the cabinets such that I can change the drivers position in the cabinets.. I can mount

the drivers on the small or big side. see post #60.

 

Since I had to design a seal for the side where the drivers are not mounted, I decided

to put some more effort in the design of these seals such that they contain properly blokkable

ports.. Thats what the aluminium flanges and port-stops are fore. Again see post #60.

 

So the cabinet is 2-way convertible:

- the drivers can be converted from one to the other side

- the cabinet can be converted from ported to sealed

 

It sounds like a lot of work!  but if it means you have placement options in your room (and wherever you move to when your neighbours call the Police every couple of days ;):P) then it will have benefits :)

 

I can't wait until you fire these all up!

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This is going to be STOOPID :blink:  In a good way.

 

Make sure you cross brace the hell out of those cabs. Those are big panels and the 24's are no joke.

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I am wanting to know how the hell he is going to get these cabinets into his house. Pretty sure they will be bigger than his door frame on all dimensions.

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Yes I'm serious...

 

Please tell me you are not bringing up the now infamous SP2-8000 on a single HS-24 discussion as part of this? It is as simple as this...If the amp was clipping and the driver was not bottoming or burning up then the material was not that demanding or wasn't played very long. That is all that there is to it.

You were at Brandon's at this last GTG were you not? Some material played there WAS demanding.

 

Let's talk about dynamic wide band content.This is not content that is that difficult on drivers. That is what matters when it comes to system design / limitations and failures. The Hulk scene you posted in your reply? Yes it has a lot of low bass, however it is very wide band and a lot of the energy is up top so some of your amplifiers voltage is being used to amplify that range and not the deep bass. Also it only lasts very briefly. No real power applied over time. It's a rough signal compared to most but something with a narrow bandwidth like a sine wave at a single deep frequency produces far more excursion for the same voltage applied from the amplifier. That's why the DB tests indicate much lower voltages in the deep bass versus wide band content. It is much more focused energy. Add some real duration to something like that and you get bad news. You can say that content similar to test signals isn't out there or is rare or whatever but it can and does happen.

 

The only reason I posted in the first place was the bridged 240v K20 on a single 24 comment. I thought it was a joke at first because it's so ridiculous. Almost every driver tested has been able to take a 10th of a second burst at 50Hz with the full power from a K10 or K20. By your logic we need a whole bridged K20 to drive a 12" LMSR or a Sundown Sa-15. Otherwise you won't get the full 6dB from doubling drivers. That's assuming that someone is dumb enough to strap enough amp capability to grenade the driver on it and that the driver could somehow survive the amp applying full power with real content. Neither of which are true at all. C'mon man...

 

 

Sorry for the late reply. I've been busy with things that matter.

 

You fellas crack me up with the whole "...I thought you were joking, you prat" sort of shit. :rolleyes:  :lol: 

 

First, please tell me you aren't going to bring up that silly and wanton destruction of drivers at the GTG to defend your position here?

 

Of course, although we agree you can't name enough to occupy all of the fingers on one hand, there exist a few scenes with sine wave content in soundtracks that are demanding on a system that has no electronic protection against such content, which is why anyone with half a brain should always ease into a new soundtrack with ANY system, regardless of test results data or published specifications... especially when someone with half a brain is yelling to the guy with the remote in his hand to "BACK OFF", three drivers into the childishly silly demo.

 

Sorry, but... irrelevant to my point. You've already made that point by citing your sine wave testing methodology and how it relates to excursion and power drain.

 

An excerpt from an article from the 80s:

 

Once, Bob Carver visited a famous sound researcher who was attempting to recreate the "snip" of an ordinary pair of scissors. He used no less that TWENTY-FOUR 200-watt amplifiers for playback. Yet when viewed on an oscilloscope it was apparent that the top of that instantaneous transition was being distorted. Believe it or not, he needed more power! It was evident that real-world sound occurs very quickly and requires far more power than ANY current amplifier could produce. The M-1.5t is a culmination of Bob's search for enough power, the ultimate amplifier for the reproduction of music today and for years to come. Why such massive amounts of amplifier power? Music is full of surprises such as explosive crescendos, combinant crests of demand created by multiple instrument sounds and the shock levels that some well-recorded instruments can instantly attain. This is what makes music live. These incredibly intense bursts of sound don't necessarily have to be loud. They are too short in duration. But, like the scissor snip, they are intense and demand power. Recorded music sounds dull without these constantly-occurring high instant peaks. If your amplifier cannot provide the instantaneous power to surmount these rigorous musical punches when they are presented at its inputs, it makes a sound of its own devising, literally an electronic gagging we call, clipping. The result is an audible degradation which has pervaded your listening for years.

 

 

What did the ^^ experiment have to do with sine waves? Nothing, of course. How many watts would it have taken to cook and/or unload the drivers being used in the experiment with a sine wave input? Not at all relevant to the discussion.

 

You're suggesting, and have suggested the same in the past, that the max excursion reached at 10 Hz with sine wave input in your all but irrelevant to playback of soundtrack content ground plane tests is the maximum a driver in a box can handle. If I'm reading you incorrectly on this point, please help me out with this.

 

But then, you devote a paragraph to emphasize my point, which is that real content is dynamic, more specifically, transient in nature and extremely wide bandwidth (in the case of a subwoofer, the transients are full bandwidth) and thus requires much more amplifier output capability than a 10 Hz sine wave will require to drive the system to max excursion. No, it's not as difficult on a driver from a standpoint of excursion. Yes, of course it's more demanding on the amplifier... which is my point.

 

Instead of that preachy paragraph, can you tell us, in the case of the hulk scene being cited, exactly how much more voltage is required? (because I obviously disagree with your contention that "no real power is required" to reproduce transients in the subwoofer band).

 

How much 10 Hz sine wave can the 2 x HST-15s take at 2M, GP in 5 cubes? I dunno, that's your milieu and for you to answer and ruminate over. How much power did it take to reproduce the Hulk punch effect in a room where the effect is transient in nature and full bandwidth? 9,000 watts. 8,915 watts to be exact. Using your metric, the amplifier would be rated at around 3,000 watts and thus there would be no way to even approach accurate reproduction of the effect without amplifier protection/distress stopping the experiment or a severely reduced playback level that would under-utilize the drivers capabilities. I think that's commonly referred to as an "amplifier-limited" system.

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At least you *have* a working site. It was a jab at a competitor who has yet to provide one. ;)

Apologize for the slight detour but I did want to follow up on Madeel's comments on a working site. My previous one got the job done but I wasn't satisfied with it so I took some time over the past week and setup a new site, which is now live. Overall I think it is pretty good with a few tweaks to wording likely necessary but other than that it is good for now. Still need to figure out freight shipping for 48 states so I can open up online ordering. If you have any suggestions, drop me a PM. Thanks.

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How does the HS24 and the FTW-21 compare? Is the HS24 drastically better? Marginally? Or?

 

 

Better how?

 

24" has more SPL potential than the FTW.

 

 

Yes... so if someone were to use an FP14k, how would 4 FTW's compare to 4 HS24's? Is it a drastic difference?

 

Also, are they both comparable in power handling?

 

 

If someone wanted to use a subwoofer with more displacement and boost the low end with an amp that can handle this it will have more SPL than a smaller displacement driver. Then add in four more subs and there ya go. Just like Bosso stated earlier. So would it be a big difference, YES. How much , I dont have the FTW on file this second to compare but I am guessing around 2db or more per driver depending on a lot of variables. Size of cabinet, frequency ect ect.

 

If your speaking purely from a max SPL standpoint, the difference in max SPL between multiples of each system will only be the db difference between the single drivers (assuming optimal box sizes and power for each driver). IOW, the difference does not multiply.

 

Let's assume (for example purposes) that the HS24 has a 2db advantage over the FTW21.

 

The difference in max SPL capability between 8 HS24s and 8 FTW21s will only be 2db. It won't be 16db (or per driver). Just wanted to clarify that.

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How much power did it take to reproduce the Hulk punch effect in a room where the effect is transient in nature and full bandwidth? 9,000 watts. 8,915 watts to be exact.

 

Since you measured exactly 8,915 watts during that hulk scene, that means you have a way of measuring near ~50A of current draw.  How are you doing that?

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Since you measured exactly 8,915 watts during that hulk scene, that means you have a way of measuring near ~50A of current draw.  How are you doing that?

That's for us to know and you to find out. ;)

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That's for us to know and you to find out. ;)

 

If you guys have a way to measure this, why not provide the data?  It would certainly answer the question about the power requirements of a sine wave vs. movie transients. 

 

At the GTG I remember the HST-15s definitely being pushed passed xmax on the hulk scene.  That insanely massive surround was dimpling, and Nick even commented that if that was happening you probably don't want to push it much further.  The FP9000's VPL lights were definitely being hit as well, so they were doing their job.

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All in due time.  We are pretty damned busy these days.  Consolidating data so that it makes sense to this community takes a massive amount of effort and time which isn't available lately, sorry.  If I wasn't sure of that number being accurate within the usual degree of measurement tool error, be sure that we wouldn't have posted it, I'll leave it at that. 

 

Yeah, the HST15 was measured to be moving 45mm one way if memory serves -right about at the point where mechanical noise was heard.  HSTs would probably get my vote for the best DIY drivers for the money these days IMO. 

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