Jump to content

Audio in 2015 - a summary of trends


Kvalsvoll

Recommended Posts

"Best cinema I've visited - period."

 

I find it timely to post an update on what I am doing and what is happening with my company and what I am working on.

 

I have had several visitors in my demo room, and lately people have spent time and money to travel quite long distances to experience the Kvålsvoll Design sound.

Some of these have posted their impressions in public, making it possible for me to use them as references to statements made by independent listeners with no affiliation to my company.

 

These people have cinemas like the AVSForum featured BEF theater for reference. 

 

The feedback is quite extraordinary.

At this point, I am willing to realize that the technical goals of this project has been fulfilled.

 

 

Proof of concept

A few comments from visitors in The Moderate Cinema demo room with Kvålsvoll Design sound system:
 
"And when it really slammed, it SLAMMED with a very dynamic attack across the whole frequency register."

"Key points are control, snap, speed and dynamics. And this makes it all very entertaining and fun and listen to."

"Best cinema I've visited - period."

"Whatever we listened to I will describe reproduction as follows: Very precise, sufficient energy and comfortable high definition."
 

 

Thread on local hifi-forum

 

I started a Kvålsvoll Design thread on the local Norwegian hifi-forum, and to my surprise a few people actually started reading.

 

I made a summary post - it's in Norwegian, use google translate, but what I like best are the pics - audiophile ostrich and obama: 

http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/hi-fi-generelt-inkludert-bransjeakta-rer/80691-kva-lsvoll-design-14.html#post2146880

 

(As you see, there is really no "In-between" here; I take a clear stand, this is "either you are with us, or you are against us.")

 

 

Kvålsvoll Design has a facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/kvalsvolldesign/

 

If you want to contribute to make this happen, you can help out by spreading the word on social media by talking about Kvålsvoll Design and sharing links to my web page, articles on my webpage, and my facebook page.

 

 

I just wanted to share this with you here on data-bass.

Even though I have nothing to sell to you, and even no plans for entering the u.s. market, I thought it would be interesting to see for other sound enthusiasts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 81
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Congrats on your success!  It's fascinating how rare a "good sound system" really is and how few people have even experienced such a thing.  Yet, the technology is hardly new and there's a whole industry around it that largely ignores the stuff that actually counts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for the kind words, data-bass has always been a good source for inspiration.

 

The most important is the size - a system like this will fit in nicely in many smaller rooms.

Make no mistake - a full-scale, big system can still do things a little different, especially for larger spaces.

 

Today it is diy that shows the way forward in home audio reproduction.

All the contributions on databass here, AVSForum and even the local norwegian forum with lots of horn-based installations show this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to put the setup paper together.

 

That was an excellent read, I look forward to applying the information to my theater.

 

I also read your compact horn paper and reviewed those designs. Very interesting.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good to hear, @lilmike.

 

By using methods and technology and knowledge available today it is possible to improve sound on those parameters that really matter for experience and sound quality.

Some of that knowledge is compressed into this paper, such as where to put focus - speakers and acoustics.

 

Some claim that the fun in audio is gone when "everything sounds the same".

That is of course very wrong, because everything does not sound the same just because parts of the audio chain now can easily be done sonically transparent. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My plan is to focus on the weakest link, then focus on the making largest improvements to that weak link that I am able to. In my case, I anticipate that it will be acoustics first, then speakers. 

 

Though I did my best to design a decent space for the theater, I anticipate that most of my efforts will be focused on optimizing the room. After all, it is a house with a theater built in it, not a theater with a house built around it. Fortunately, I am working with a dedicated space. The acoustics aren't bad, but are certainly not optimal. Speaker placement should be good, though not quite ideal. I'll know a lot more once I am no longer using the theater as a warehouse and can actually move things into their proper alignment and figure out what I am working with.

 

Speakers aren't "easy", but accurately assessing their performance is far easier than it was when I started with this hobby. If my speakers don't sound right, it is my fault as the designer. My microphone doesn't lie and it doesn't care about my feelings.

 

I hope to get to the point where the speakers are no longer the weakest link.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The room layout and acoustics are definitely the weakest link in my case. Not even close to a dedicated space and suboptimal shape and seating placement as well. I still think it sounds miles better than most systems I've heard but I'm sure there is some pride of ownership clouding my judgment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some pictures from the Moderate Cinema demo room on my web page, and from what little you can see in those pictures, there is really not much that has been done with acoustic treatment, and the room is quite small.

 

This room is set up to resemble a more typical and realistic space that many people will actually have.

My sound system, including the speakers, must function well in the environment that people will use them in, if I am to succeed in selling the "sound".

My experience with several people visiting is that they can certainly hear the benefits of better sound.

 

I could design speakers that needs a very large space, or extensive construction work for acoustics, but then most customers would not get what they wanted, because the sound in their room is not what they heard at the demo. 

 

And even though this leads to compromises, I think the result can be reasonably good, and give a thrilling sound experience, and that is what this is about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

..

. In my case, I anticipate that it will be acoustics first, then speakers. 

..

 

What I have found is that the characteristics of the speakers determines how to treat acoustics.

Speaker radiation pattern is important here, directional speakers need different considerations compared to the old-school dome tweeter, wide radiation hifi-speakers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Understood.

 

I suppose I could have been more clear or shared a bit more of my plan. I can't really share what isn't finished. I plan for all of my speakers to have pattern control via waveguides. Designs and dispersion angles certainly aren't final yet, but the boxes of parts are starting to arrive and the designs are well under way.

 

My mains will be different than the surrounds, but there will definitely be controlled directivity employed in my theater. No point sending sound other than to where the listeners can enjoy it. I know that I I will need some room treatment for optimal results, and I've been doing a fair bit of reading on what to measure and what to work on fixing first. I've also got some incredibly capable people that I can lean on a little bit to help me with this. The best speakers still need the room to be "right", or the results will be poor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waveguide horns will tend to have a radiation pattern closer to mine, which means they will not send much sound into nearby surfaces at higher frequencies.

But they will light up the back wall.

 

Trying out different solutions is part of the fun, and often leads to new experiences.

 

Experiments dealing with how we perceive sound has been important for me.

It is the assumptions for what we hear and how we hear that forms the foundation for design specifications.

Today we know that "we only need 20Hz" and "115dB is more than anyone will need" is wrong, and this can easily be verified once you experience the difference. 

But this is also important when dealing with acoustics, to find out what is most important to fix, so that effort can be put in where it matter the most.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a great discussion.  I personally feel that speakers and room acoustics are of roughly equal importance to achieving quality sound.  I will repeat what @Kvalsvoll already said that acoustic treatments should be tailored to the characteristics of the speakers.  That's not to say that new speakers necessitate dramatic changes, especially if they are of similar character.  For example, controlled-directivity horns will tend to limit dispersion to the sides, so side-wall treatment that affects high frequencies may be less important than when using dome tweeters.

 

The issue of speaker placement is very important, and one must be take into account the characteristics of the speaker and room together to understand how placement affects the sound.  I don't know of many speakers that are designed to be placed against a wall, except maybe in a flush-mount configuration.  At the same time, placing speakers further away from the wall has its own problems and typically involves a compromise in output.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a great discussion.  I personally feel that speakers and room acoustics are of roughly equal importance to achieving quality sound.

 

I tend to agree with that.

 

The small F1 mains that you can see on pictures in articles and presentations on the web site is a very good example of this.

They are born with a potential to sound great, but if you put them in a random environment, plug it in and start the music, it will most likely be a huge disappointment - not at all the huge, great sound that was heard in the demo room. 

 

The solution is to sell the speakers with appropriate guidelines for placement, room and acoustic treatment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More audio myth-busting.

 

Why Vinyl Sounds Better

All audiophiles know vinyl sounds better than digital.

If that is the case, it must also be possible to find out why, and quantify this in meaningful objective technical measures.

 

But it turns out it does not sound any better.

In fact, the best way to play vinyl is to rip it to digital, and play back like all other digital sources, from the computer.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More audio myth-busting.

 

Why Vinyl Sounds Better

All audiophiles know vinyl sounds better than digital.

If that is the case, it must also be possible to find out why, and quantify this in meaningful objective technical measures.

 

As far as I recall, one reason advanced as being a reason behind a subjective preference for vinyl is the nature of the frequency dependent crosstalk that a vinyl system produces. AIUI the argument goes that a high quality digital system brings crosstalk down to v low levels but that this leads to (frequency dependent) inconsistencies in the phantom image produced. The frequency dependent crosstalk produced by vinyl thus improves this situation by its effect on the phantom image and hence is perceived as more pleasurable/relaxing to listen to. I don't know how rigorously that has been studied but it's certainly something that can be objectively measured.

 

AcourateFlow is an example of a digital implementation of such a filter btw.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I recall, one reason advanced as being a reason behind a subjective preference for vinyl is the nature of the frequency dependent crosstalk that a vinyl system produces. AIUI the argument goes that a high quality digital system brings crosstalk down to v low levels but that this leads to (frequency dependent) inconsistencies in the phantom image produced. The frequency dependent crosstalk produced by vinyl thus improves this situation by its effect on the phantom image and hence is perceived as more pleasurable/relaxing to listen to. I don't know how rigorously that has been studied but it's certainly something that can be objectively measured.

 

AcourateFlow is an example of a digital implementation of such a filter btw.

 

Every day you make my brain hurt :D lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I recall, one reason advanced as being a reason behind a subjective preference for vinyl is the nature of the frequency dependent crosstalk that a vinyl system produces. AIUI the argument goes that a high quality digital system brings crosstalk down to v low levels but that this leads to (frequency dependent) inconsistencies in the phantom image produced. The frequency dependent crosstalk produced by vinyl thus improves this situation by its effect on the phantom image and hence is perceived as more pleasurable/relaxing to listen to. I don't know how rigorously that has been studied but it's certainly something that can be objectively measured.

 

AcourateFlow is an example of a digital implementation of such a filter btw.

 

I have just listened to some samples comparing vinyl to digital, and I stand by what I said in the article.

 

Crosstalk effect can be one parameter giving the "vinyl sound", but I tend to believe that the better your vinyl rig is, it will sound more equal to the digital.

I observed on some tracks that the image of instruments kind of float around, quite obvious when you have the digital to do a back-to-back check, and this is actually more distracting than pleasant to listen to.

 

Midrange is quite good, especially vocal is nice and very present, digital sounds just a tiny bit more edgy.

But the vinyl lacks in transient attack, and the bass is better on digital, there is more punch and definition.

 

Finishing off the listening session with some newer digital productions reveals qualities that can never be put on a vinyl record.

Clarity, lack of distortion, transient attack, dynamics, no noise or pops and crackles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't listened to vinyl in my own system since I was maybe a teenager so I have no idea what "high end" vinyl is like. I do find the intersection of high end digital audiophile with vinyl(ophile) an interesting one though, it often seems to be the case that the complexity of the rationale [for whatever they are doing] appears to scale inversely with the likely impact [of that change]. I suppose those of the words of someone who believes the room + speakers are what matters though :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vinyl...

 

I quit listening to vinyl when my modest pea-shooter subwoofers would skip the stylus. That was long ago, with a far, far less capable system. All my media is stored digitally now, though most of it isn't even available at the moment, as the server isn't back online yet. Even if it were, I've not got a system in place yet that truly allows me to appreciate the subtleties and nuances between sources. At this point, I am happy just to have some music playing, even if it is just in the background as I am working on some other project.

 

Certainly, room acoustics and speaker characteristics are inter-related. Directional speakers require a totally different setup, I've been playing with my Econowaves for several years so I am a little bit familiar with this already. I've not yet built or measured the "proper" speakers, let alone put them in the room, so I am still not sure what I'll be working with. I am pretty sure that I will reach the limits of what I can do with the speakers fairly quickly, but then, I am not exactly planning on being a pioneer either. I think that the optimization of the room and proper integration of the speakers will require considerably more effort, as I am starting with a completely blank slate and a much more vertical learning curve. I've never been able to work in a dedicated room where the acoustical considerations trump the aesthetic and appearance concerns. 

 

Should be a fun project. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lilmike, what are the "proper speakers"?

Econowaves are quite decent speakers with waveguide and CD?

 

Sometimes it is better to just dream on about the good old days; the cars we would love to drive, the all-too-narrow skis, and the high-end vinyl.

Once you decide to bring it back and compare to what we have today, the illusion and dream is gone.

 

If we had the technology we have now, at least I would have all my vinyl records in top shape, because they would have been played only once, when I ripped them to a hard drive.

For around USD100 - you already have the laptop computer - you can now do an exact copy with absolutely no loss in sound quality.

 

The new world is much better.

In a demo I can play scenes from movies by clicking on a selection, and in the next moment I can play a music track from the same list, all on the same computer on the same software media player.

And when they request something I don't have, youtube is just a few clicks away, and then we find it there, most often in a quality that exceeds what is possible on any vinyl.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't listened to vinyl in my own system since I was maybe a teenager so I have no idea what "high end" vinyl is like. I do find the intersection of high end digital audiophile with vinyl(ophile) an interesting one though, it often seems to be the case that the complexity of the rationale [for whatever they are doing] appears to scale inversely with the likely impact [of that change]. I suppose those of the words of someone who believes the room + speakers are what matters though :)

 

If you look at the "hi-res" audiophile music providers, you will find that the music is often available in different "hi-res" formats, such as 24/96, DSD, and - vinyl.

16-bit CD is not good enough, but vinyl with possibly pops and crackles and 10 bit resolution if you are lucky, is considered state-of-the-art.

 

And they wonder why people loose interest in audio..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really buy the crosstalk argument.  A bit of Googling suggests that -30 dB crosstalk might be considered *good* performance for a vinyl system.  Almost all listening rooms have early reflections above that level, typically much higher.

 

I suspect that many if not most "audiophiles" have never actually been acquainted with a system and room with good imaging, so they have no basis with which to judge performance.  Speaker designs using controlled directivity (CD) and similar approaches can provide a substantial imaging improvement over other designs, and they achieve this primarily by diminishing some room reflections.  However, even with CD, room treatments make a big difference.  Few speakers have much directivity below 200 Hz or so, yet the ear and brain are sensitive to phase differences well below 200 Hz.

 

I believe the ear and brain are also sensitive to large (say 10-15 dB or more) inter-ear *level differences* down to and *below* 80 Hz.  I saw as much in a paper I read in the past, but sadly I didn't download it and can't locate it again.  You can kind of confirm this for yourself using headphones if they are low enough in distortion.  You literally feel more pressure in one ear than another.  This situation can occur in-room if one is sitting in a deep null.  Near that null, SPL can vary by a lot over a short distance, and this difference in level can contribute false imaging cues to the ears.  Bass absorption in the room, apart from dramatically improving intelligibility and transient response, can reduce these nulls and make the bass sound more non-directional as it should.  It can also improve the clarity of harmonics from the mains that the brain can use for localization.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lilmike, what are the "proper speakers"?

Econowaves are quite decent speakers with waveguide and CD?

 

Sometimes it is better to just dream on about the good old days; the cars we would love to drive, the all-too-narrow skis, and the high-end vinyl.

Once you decide to bring it back and compare to what we have today, the illusion and dream is gone.

 

If we had the technology we have now, at least I would have all my vinyl records in top shape, because they would have been played only once, when I ripped them to a hard drive.

For around USD100 - you already have the laptop computer - you can now do an exact copy with absolutely no loss in sound quality.

 

The new world is much better.

In a demo I can play scenes from movies by clicking on a selection, and in the next moment I can play a music track from the same list, all on the same computer on the same software media player.

And when they request something I don't have, youtube is just a few clicks away, and then we find it there, most often in a quality that exceeds what is possible on any vinyl.

 

The Econowaves I have place a LOT of emphasis on the "econo" portion of the name. My driver selections were dictated by the parts that I had on hand and the modest budget that I had available at the time. I spent more on the crossover parts used in each cabinet than I did on the compression drivers or the midbasses. Still, at moderate levels, they're certainly acceptable, they just lose their composure a touch too quickly when pushed, and are a bit "thick" sounding through the upper bass and lower midrange due to the poor-quality midbass drivers I used. They're not bad, not by any stretch, just nowhere near what I could do with some decent quality drivers and a bit more effort. At the time, and for the money spent, I have no complaints. They mustn't be too awful, I have listened to them for something like four years now.

 

"Proper" speakers? Well, I am experimenting with a lot of things right now. I have SEOS 12s and a number of good compression drivers to play with, as well as some solid 12" midbasses that will be assembled into something close to Bagby's Tempest over the next few months. I anticipate that these will serve fine while I experiment with some other ideas I have.

 

See, I'd love to have Unity or Synergy horns in the theater, but I am not sure the complexity and size of the multi-entrant horns is warranted, given the performance and phase matching I am seeing with the coaxial projects currently out there. Now, if I can maintain that phase matching, but add some directional control, things might get very interesting. I also have a selection of coaxial drivers and thread-on compression drivers to experiment with. I'm not sure I'll manage enough extension for the coaxials to serve as a true full-range 2-way main in the theater, so I may need to add a bass driver into the mix. We'll see.

 

The only way to know what I can achieve is to design, build, and then measure the results. The issue I face now is finishing enough of my house so that I can live there, then I can justify taking a weekend or two off and spending some time making (and listening to) speakers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...