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Bossobass Dave

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And that's where I met you, Dave, over at HTguide. Wow, that was a LONG time ago. :P

 

 

I love reminiscing about such things. Let's keep doing this. :D

 

 

OK, here's a couple of names and a pic:

 

Brian Bunge had RAD Home Theater and built mains and subs (RAD-10), etc.

 

How about Kyle Richardson of Acoustic Visions? Remember the Everest?

 

88eef89cc1efd21c6eab599bf60184c4.png

 

2 x 15" Tumults (68 pounder XBl^2 driver with 34 mm Xmax, not too far from the HST-15s we just had a go with at the GTG. I have a pair in the original all-black Raven that I still have) with 4 passive radiators tuned to 14-15 Hz. 24" x 24" x 48" wood veneer and flexed the walls of the little room it was in at CES, circa 2004, IIRC.

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I began posting at Home Theater Forums in 2002. I made 2 posts before the Big Giant Head (TV) attacked with his line-by-line ridicule of my post, followed by the cheering-on of his faithful groupies who wouldn't know a subwoofer if it was humping their leg.

 

I didn't post in any forum for almost 2 years after that and my entire stay at HTF comprised a total of 256 posts.

 

I dislike the guy. I don't respect his abilities as a sub designer. I think he's a hack and all of his subs were either blatant ripoffs of other designers or ho-hum junk. He still uses forums to market his wares in blatant violation of all forum rules and gets away with it. And, he still disparages anyone who doesn't fawn over his junk-subs and gets away with it.

 

One reason is that I would rather die than run to a mod. I've NEVER reported a post to a mod in all my years in any forum I've been a member of.

 

I left AVS because TBGH reported me for posting comments regarding the piss-poor performance of his 15" ported sub that he was re-desiging with a different companies driver while planning to discontinue it as he was desperately defending the POS in the forums.

 

The mod told me that I need to report him rather than to try to handle the situation myself.

 

WOW.

 

Are we in kindergarten?

 

I left HTS over the same thing. Little Sonny deleted one of my posts and then actually re-wrote the post and e-mailed it to me, suggesting that I post his version instead of my own.

 

3230f9046d838bf73edc6d6bb3c35afe.png

I saw earlier that RMK, who I told was pretty much a pompous moron who blatantly shills for the Danley, JTR, Seaton trio (IOW, whatever sub he owns at the time) and has the total accumulated knowledge of my mother-in-law when it comes to subwoofers in LilGator's short-lived forum, has attacked the Raptor with a reference to a vacuum cleaner or some shit like that. Awesome stuff. That's what AVS has become... a marketing platform with shills reporting the competition or anyone who steps out of line with the actual data about any of their claims.

 

Full of threads like: "Please Tell Me What Sub To Buy!!!"

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I didn't see Rob's post about the vacuum cleaner.... I'll have to look for that but I hope that the comment is out of context. He should know the benefit of a good sub system, and I see no reason why he would knock on yours... 

 

My favorite at this point is the requests to some of the forum vets. I literally walked one guy through his entire build. How to cut, how to router, how to flush trim, seal, stain, yadah yadah... You never saw it why? He never ended up doing anything...All along I thought he was progressing through his build and nope, NOTHING ever happened. 

 

I thought it couldn't get worse until another forum member emailed me with a request from a noob basically saying "I want to do DIY, but I don't have tools to cut, so would you like, do that for me? Also, I am not sure I am good at putting a crossover board together so like, do you have a soddering iron and the ability there? Also, I don't know where to get the drivers....Yay! DIY is going to be so fun!!!" 

 

Good grief. 

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^^^^

 

I get those kinds of PM's all the time. :P

 

It's funny.. I never thought of it but I stopped (never did anyway) posting at HTS because the traffic was light and there was this huge animosity to AVS and it was mentioned everywhere. That's why I get annoyed when I hear it here. It's like... let's just talk about our hobby instead of gossiping about each other. Yet, here I am. Ugh.

 

So far this place as been good. It's fun to talk shit but it's more fun and educating to talk shop. ;)

 

 

 

So like, would you build be a Raptor? Please. :D

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OK, here's a couple of names and a pic:

 

Brian Bunge had RAD Home Theater and built mains and subs (RAD-10), etc.

 

How about Kyle Richardson of Acoustic Visions? Remember the Everest?

 

I do! I remember them all. Wow, what a time. I was much younger and much, much more naive about this hobby. Learned a lot though.

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Bosso, I remember Home Theater Forum very well.  

 

That was the first forum I stumbled on, even before AVS.  I completely drank the SVS kool-aid.  The subwoofer section was ridiculous.  There were times when literally EVERY single thread on page one was about SVS (this was around 2000-2001 if I remember right).  

 

So, I figured SVS must be the greatest thing ever.  Post after post about how people's teeth were rattling out of their heads, pant legs were flapping in the breeze, houses about to implode, etc. and all the while Ron and Tom were replying to seemingly every single post on every thread. 

 

So, finally I broke down and bought a SVS and my expectations were off the chart.  I fired it up and.... what?!?!?!  It fell so far below my expectations after spending so much time on the forum.  I got more feel and slam from my crappy CV speakers with the 15 inch drivers (sure they probably only went down to around 30 - 35hz but they were subjectively more impressive than the SVS).     

 

It was around that time that someone on the forum had the audacity to compare a SVS with a HSU and they liked the HSU better.  All hell broke loose.  Tom attacked the guy like I had never seen and all the SVS fans jumped in too.  Soon after I discovered AVS and I liked the fact that it didn't have the SVS worship that HTF had so I never went back.      

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Bosso, I remember Home Theater Forum very well.  

 

That was the first forum I stumbled on, even before AVS.  I completely drank the SVS kool-aid.  The subwoofer section was ridiculous.  There were times when literally EVERY single thread on page one was about SVS (this was around 2000-2001 if I remember right).  

 

So, I figured SVS must be the greatest thing ever.  Post after post about how people's teeth were rattling out of their heads, pant legs were flapping in the breeze, houses about to implode, etc. and all the while Ron and Tom were replying to seemingly every single post on every thread. 

 

So, finally I broke down and bought a SVS and my expectations were off the chart.  I fired it up and.... what?!?!?!  It fell so far below my expectations after spending so much time on the forum.  I got more feel and slam from my crappy CV speakers with the 15 inch drivers (sure they probably only went down to around 30 - 35hz but they were subjectively more impressive than the SVS).     

 

It was around that time that someone on the forum had the audacity to compare a SVS with a HSU and they liked the HSU better.  All hell broke loose.  Tom attacked the guy like I had never seen and all the SVS fans jumped in too.  Soon after I discovered AVS and I liked the fact that it didn't have the SVS worship that HTF had so I never went back.      

 

W-O-W!

 

What was your SN there?

 

Yup, that was it... the SVS HQ. I only posted in the DIY section. I lobbied Bott to start a DIY forum at AVS because it was hell competing with Craig Chase's latest SHOOTOUT!!! He would always say stuff like "Yeah, the DIYers never count their labor or the cost of tools..." Blah, Blah.

 

There was also the most annoying mantra of "Anything under 20 Hz is unintended noise that needs to be filtered out!!!".

 

Amazing coincidence that the ported ID subwoofer target tune was... 20 Hz. Ah, science at it's best.

 

Well, today at AVS, the number of acronyms have expanded, that's all. SVS, JTR, Hsu, RA, PSA, DSS and pity the company that doesn't have an acronym. it's still the SOS except you can't defend your position for the mods and adverts everywhere, deleting and banning and hurting your eyes.

 

Hey, I just realized that my acronym is POT. :wacko::blink::P

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HTF was my first forum too. Posted A LOT there in the early 2000's. The DIY section was totally good there for the time I was there until it suddenly wasn't. Then I moved off to HTGuide for several years.

 

The subwoofer section was unreal at SVS Forum, I mean HTF. lol!

 

Wow, Sheldon, didn't know you on HTF at all. :P Or maybe I did?! Probably not. lol

 

I skipped all the ID stuff and went straight to DIY and have never looked back. My first subwoofer was a small 8" Yamaha (which I still have) and then went from that to a 15" DefTech and man, THAT was an upgrade. It rocked that thing hard though and even though (at the time) it seemed epic I would push it too hard and shut it down routinely. Then I built my first DIY sub (Adire Tempest 15hz vented, still have it) and .... well. Good times. Great times! Never buying a premade sub ever again. No way. No fucking way.

 

This is fun. :D

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I think my name was the same but with a capital C (last name is Carpenter and most people call me carp).  I didn't spend any time in the DIY section, I figured that was just for the "crazies", haha, no offense I didn't know any better at the time.   :P  ;)  

 

Those guys (Ron and Tom) really were marketing geniuses.  There is no way they were doing anything but sitting at their computers (I always wondered who was really building the subs??) because they would reply to anyone and everyone almost immediately at all hours of the day.  

 

Ah yes, the 20hz tuned sub thing.  I remember well talking to Tom before I bought my sub and he said unless I'm really into pipe organ music then I will never need anything below 20hz, and that 25 hz might even be more accurate.  Yep, pipe organs were all that extended below 25hz.    :blink:   I believed him.   :(

 

 

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HTF was my first forum too. Posted A LOT there in the early 2000's. The DIY section was totally good there for the time I was there until it suddenly wasn't. Then I moved off to HTGuide for several years.

 

The subwoofer section was unreal at SVS Forum, I mean HTF. lol!

 

Wow, Sheldon, didn't know you on HTF at all. :P Or maybe I did?! Probably not. lol

 

I skipped all the ID stuff and went straight to DIY and have never looked back. My first subwoofer was a small 8" Yamaha (which I still have) and then went from that to a 15" DefTech and man, THAT was an upgrade. It rocked that thing hard though and even though (at the time) it seemed epic I would push it too hard and shut it down routinely. Then I built my first DIY sub (Adire Tempest 15hz vented, still have it) and .... well. Good times. Great times! Never buying a premade sub ever again. No way. No fucking way.

 

This is fun. :D

I'm not sure if I first met you on HTF or AVS, but I've seen your name (and Dave's) for as long as I can remember being on forums.  What's this?  We can cuss here?  Fuckin' A man!!!   :D

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HTF was my first forum too. Posted A LOT there in the early 2000's. The DIY section was totally good there for the time I was there until it suddenly wasn't. Then I moved off to HTGuide for several years.

 

This is fun. :D

 

Yeah, it really is. It blows to wax nostalgic and have no one who was there to relate to the experiences. It's great when the opposite is the case.

 

 

Ah yes, the 20hz tuned sub thing.  I remember well talking to Tom before I bought my sub and he said unless I'm really into pipe organ music then I will never need anything below 20hz, and that 25 hz might even be more accurate.  Yep, pipe organs were all that extended below 25hz.    :blink:   I believed him.   :(

 

YES! That's it, exactly! Chase once started a thread at AVS about him contacting a film mix engineer who assured him that no one mixes anything into a soundtrack <18 Hz. That would have had to mean that Spielberg hired the biggest load of morons to design sound and mix WOTW's soundtrack.

 

Funny shit, and I remember it painfully. :P

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I'm not sure if I first met you on HTF or AVS, but I've seen your name (and Dave's) for as long as I can remember being on forums.  What's this?  We can cuss here?  Fuckin' A man!!!   :D

 

Yer goddamned right we can cuss here. Adults treating each other like adults at Data Bass. I love that shit. :D

 

Wow, I'm a newb to online forums.  AVS was the first and I joined that in 2011.  

 

Pssh. Damn noobs asking questions bout nooby things. :P

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I didn't see Rob's post about the vacuum cleaner.... I'll have to look for that but I hope that the comment is out of context. He should know the benefit of a good sub system, and I see no reason why he would knock on yours... 

 

My favorite at this point is the requests to some of the forum vets. I literally walked one guy through his entire build. How to cut, how to router, how to flush trim, seal, stain, yadah yadah... You never saw it why? He never ended up doing anything...All along I thought he was progressing through his build and nope, NOTHING ever happened. 

 

I thought it couldn't get worse until another forum member emailed me with a request from a noob basically saying "I want to do DIY, but I don't have tools to cut, so would you like, do that for me? Also, I am not sure I am good at putting a crossover board together so like, do you have a soddering iron and the ability there? Also, I don't know where to get the drivers....Yay! DIY is going to be so fun!!!" 

 

Good grief. 

 

Man that's exactly how I feel sometimes. There's a guy over there, Tip24/96 or something like that who claims to be a cabinet maker, but have two threads about how to center the driver on the baffle???? HTF does he not know how to do that. Got all pissy when I told him he should know how to use a tape and square.

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I remember those days, I owned 3 cylinder svs subs at the time, the 16-46CS + with Samson amps! I ran tests comparing the PB2/plus vs my DIY sealed eD and LLT eD.  I was just looking at spl at the time and the SVS was tuned to 25hz.  I am not kidding here, in my room before the baffle wall the SVS hit 101 dB in the front corner during WotW.  I have no idea what frequency but I would guess 30hz during the Pod Emerge scenes.  The SVS cost me $1200.  The eD sealed hit 110 dB and the LLT hit 116 dB all playing the same scene in the same front right corner.  No EQ, all set to the same levels using test tones.  The eD subs cost me $300 with amp to build!  Of course the amps shared subs to bring down the cost, and they were uglier. 

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I remember those days, I owned 3 cylinder svs subs at the time, the 16-46CS + with Samson amps! I ran tests comparing the PB2/plus vs my DIY sealed eD and LLT eD.  I was just looking at spl at the time and the SVS was tuned to 25hz.  I am not kidding here, in my room before the baffle wall the SVS hit 101 dB in the front corner during WotW.  I have no idea what frequency but I would guess 30hz during the Pod Emerge scenes.  The SVS cost me $1200.  The eD sealed hit 110 dB and the LLT hit 116 dB all playing the same scene in the same front right corner.  No EQ, all set to the same levels using test tones.  The eD subs cost me $300 with amp to build!  Of course the amps shared subs to bring down the cost, and they were uglier. 

 

Another W-O-W.

 

I didn't know you were around that long as well.

 

I went to a GTG in Chicago around that time and there were several sub there, including one of the rug covered water heaters. It was a one note wonder. Much as I disliked TBGH, I never dissed those obviously poor performing subwoofers. In fact, I praised the PB 13 thingy many, many times and one of those times ED let me know that TV had nothing to do with the design of it and that he was gone before it was produced, or something like that.

 

I saved a collage of "pants flapped, teeth rattled loose, window broke" kinda posts because I knew then that some day they would just evoke lots of laughter.

 

You've got a ton of good data, James. You got a ton of shit data as well, but a ton of good data. Awesome and thanks for posting along the way.

 

I can do around 250 times what that sub can do and my teeth are perfectly intact... that's weird, there must be something wrong with my bass... :lol:B)

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The new amp arrived today. We don't know what we're gonna call it yet until the tests are properly conducted but so far it's a winner. This should cement plans to offer the Raptor in a single module for a pretty great price until the special edition stock is gone and I'm testing the Raptor SI with the amp and taking lots of great pics as well.

 

Should be pretty good stuff. We're excited, anyway. :)

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I remember those days, I owned 3 cylinder svs subs at the time, the 16-46CS + with Samson amps! I ran tests comparing the PB2/plus vs my DIY sealed eD and LLT eD.  I was just looking at spl at the time and the SVS was tuned to 25hz.  I am not kidding here, in my room before the baffle wall the SVS hit 101 dB in the front corner during WotW.  I have no idea what frequency but I would guess 30hz during the Pod Emerge scenes.  The SVS cost me $1200.  The eD sealed hit 110 dB and the LLT hit 116 dB all playing the same scene in the same front right corner.  No EQ, all set to the same levels using test tones.  The eD subs cost me $300 with amp to build!  Of course the amps shared subs to bring down the cost, and they were uglier. 

 

Wow, elemental Designs subs, man that was a long time ago. I think they might have made maybe $15 on those subwoofer packages. Margins were definitely lower than they should have been. 

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Forums seem to have a life cycle.  One of the best forums I ever belonged to was Swalylock's.  Best surfboard design forum in the world for a time.  Then it got too popular, too many ads, more noise, less signal, more marketing, and we have the Swayock's we have now.  AVS followed a similar path.  It is now essentially a marketing tool, and a good one at that.

 

I joined AVS on the 'too popular' downslide.

 

I would never have done any of this if my 12" sealed sub's amp hadn't bought the farm nearly 9 years ago, prompting me to look for a replacement (I had the tools, some time, but no design to make).  I ran into BFM's TableTuba, and got introduced to 30Hz high sensitivity design, for only $100 outlay.  I still remember playing Gorillaz 'Dare' and disovering a 38Hz note I had no idea was there, and that the note was strongest at the back of the room.  I had no idea what Reference was.  Turns out I used to listen to films at -20dBRef maximum.  The TT allowed for -15dB listening, and my mains sometimes complained, and so did that sub with certain scenes (AotC intro, THX cavalcade, etc).  I brought this up on BFMs forum, and was quickly told that there is no  significant content below 30Hz.

 

I then built a THT, and some line arrays, and got -10dBRef performance to 20Hz.  HUGE difference.  But each seat had wildly different FRs (Thanks REW for opening that Pandora's Box, I used to use recorded sine tones, an SPL meter, and Excel), esp in the LF region.  The THT didn't complain as much as the TT, but it did sometimes, making me think that there has to be stuff encoded much lower.  So I discovered SL, AVS, Keith Yates' articles and started measuring (DVDs at the time).  Oh man....another Pandora's Box.

 

To combat the 'every seat has a different FR' problem, I built a second THT, and placed the mouths at the room's 1/4 points.  Mode cancellation worked, and my whole couch had the same FR, and I got extension to 16Hz.  After that, came Avengers.  Huge expectations, terrible ULF, especially after TIH's greatness, what a letdown.  When I pointed out that Avengers was severely lacking, the AVS' mob fought back, and I left.

 

That is what started the LF content thread, to identify which films/songs/tracks had the most LF/ULF.

 

I was SO frustrated with Avengers, that I then developed the BEQ process with the help of several members here, as so many films appeared to have definitive filters applied.  I simply did my best to reverse them, and it was incredible.  Avengers, PacRim, Godzilla, all got significant improvements.  Good LF films became WotW/TIH-like experiences (TF2 BEQ is one of the best examples of good to 'holy cow!'). 

 

As much as I wish the best for this forum, I hope it will stay small-ish.  I would hate seeing what happened to AVS/Swaylock's happen here, but it may be inevitable.

 

I now have an 8Hz capable system, with significant output below, to -7dBRef.  It is another world, and I like re-visiting old favorite tracks and being surprised at what I missed before.

 

 

JSS

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I rarely venture outside the DIY or room design sections at AVS. So much more noise and subjective opinions elsewhere. There is still science going on in the DIY...somewhat. Honestly I feel like part of the downfall still was DIYSG. It single handedly bastardized the DIY section and brought in folks who otherwise had no business going DIY. That is where I leave all that though, I ain't trudgin' down that road again....The good news is they have their own subforum now, and the DIY seems to be leaning back towards where it once was...minus some of the brilliant minds that once posted and have now left.

 

I have AVS to thank for my incredible room and multitudes of knowledge. If I hadn't found it, I would still have a 46" TV and probably my old ascend acoustics monitors, rocking a 150w sub amp and a ported 10" sub like the rest of the world. The enjoyment and time I have spend over the last 5 years working on my HT and building new designs has been time well spent. It never stops, and for that I am thankful. Always something new to try out :D :D 

 

Max, I remember my journey as well man, first real sub was a pair of the f-20's. I had no idea you could get that much bass outside of a car cabin or small venue concert! Haha. Didn't take long for me to start diggin deeper though..... Next up the LLT, clean to 12hz! "Put On" by young jeezy now sounded more balanced and the lowest note finally came through as strong as the rest. Oh but wait..... I sacrificed a little output up top to get here, so what's next? I know, let's buy 11ty thousand 18" drivers and just toss sealed boxes all over the place. Tack on 14,000 watts and that should do 'er. Will it DEFINITELY did 'er, haha. 

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Yeah, I have been around and the shit data is well, the learning curve, but it was fun at least.  The first REW graph I ever made in any of my threads was when I transformed my 6 foot tall eD LLT's tuned at 13.5hz to 8 sealed eD subs.  I had a flat response except the null at the crossover which I had no idea could be tamed with delay.  Of course even then I used the spl meter with correction files so my low end was not as good as thought, flat to 12hz, not 5hz.  They were exactly like the Chase subs in feel and response except the CHT stuff did have a bigger mid bass impact or can be crossed over higher.  Honestly, I thought the two big Danley DTS-10's were better in subjective feel than those systems and until I started to use drivers with real low end did I finally see the light.  The HT-18 from Nick showed excellent performance for a low cost driver and it has been the best performer by far and since I can throw even 12 more in my room using the big x-max drivers were never needed for me. 

 

BTW the reason the DTS-10's were better was because they were down low compared to the CHT and eD systems, equal at 12hz but 8 dB more output from the DTS-10's at 16hz but the sealed was better up top, and they were.  My IB with the SI drivers are better than anything I have owned everywhere, frequency does not matter. 

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Honestly I feel like part of the downfall still was DIYSG. It single handedly bastardized the DIY section and brought in folks who otherwise had no business going DIY.

Don't forget the Marty subs ;)

 

Even though I'm deeply entrenched in DIYSG, I can't disagree (except the Marty thing). Some of the people and their questions are disturbing. It was really fun when Bill would put up a XO schematic and people would have at it. To make things easy you could buy a SEOS 12 baffle. Well now "diy'ers" want the whole thing on their doorstep with step by step instructions how to assemble. Even things like, which terminal cups or what glue type! I put up with it, but only cause I'd like to go pro one day and it's a stepping stone. I'll probably regret admitting that on a public forum, but this is pretty obscure, and most people know that. The people are fine and the forum is fine, just got to put up with the questions ;)

 

I too only go into the DIY section (and the DIYSG section to work). It's not dead yet. I check the front page for silly reviews and things to harp on :)

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Don't forget the Marty subs ;)

 

Even though I'm deeply entrenched in DIYSG, I can't disagree (except the Marty thing). Some of the people and their questions are disturbing. It was really fun when Bill would put up a XO schematic and people would have at it. To make things easy you could buy a SEOS 12 baffle. Well now "diy'ers" want the whole thing on their doorstep with step by step instructions how to assemble. Even things like, which terminal cups or what glue type! I put up with it, but only cause I'd like to go pro one day and it's a stepping stone. I'll probably regret admitting that on a public forum, but this is pretty obscure, and most people know that  ;)

 

I too only go into the DIY section (and the DIYSG section to work). It's not dead yet. I check the front page for silly reviews and things to harp on. Waste of time really.

 

 

Oh boy the Marty's. I have to say, I have had a TON of fun just clowning the marty epidemic, but the truth is, it has done well for quite a few folks. 

 

I know you are well entrenched into the DIYSG stuff, and I want to make sure you know that any comments I make, derogatory or defamatory, are NEVER directed at you. You are a good dude, TC, and selfless with your time and designs. I'm a "Bidness Man," first and foremost and am constantly looking bigger picture, so I know this is certainly a start to a very bright journey for you. Just don't go letting anyone jank your designs before you get a patent slapped on 'em  :D  That's a real easy way to learn the hard way...

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