Bossobass Mini GTG Thread

[lukeamdman]

To me it is easy, SI wins hands down in both performance and price but loses in box size, well, it is a 24 inch driver. Even handling 2 LMS 5400's is saying something. This forum has the numbers and it is not 3 dB everywhere but 2-3 in various places, even the tester just mentioned 3 LMS 5400's vs one. Where is the problem?

 

I completely agree.  If I had to choose between a single SI-24 or a pair of 5400s, I'd take the SI.

 

16hz lover specifically pointed out that below 20hz is where the 5400s were "overwhelmed" and "fell on their faces", and since that's where the performance should be the closest based on all measured facts, I simply said there might have been a few DB left on the table with the 5400s.  Is that really that crazy of an idea?

[lukeamdman]

I'd like video evidence of such event.

 

 

+1 for video evidence.... 

 

 

Take a peek at my thread...

[MKtheater]

What was the box sizes for each? If neither were pushed to max then wouldn't the box size effect their sensitivity down low? Either way Ricci's tests confirms the GTG's results, all the subjective opinions are their own. If someone says it felt that much better than it did to them, having said that it seems my subjective opinion is shot down or thrown in the trash these days.

[Electrodynamic]

+1 for video evidence.... 

 

Wowzers I had some catching up to do on this thread. At this point I am now tapped out, filled with regret about throwing that stupid g2g. I agree that what we did there "Took science back more years than anything I have ever seen on any forum period." You guys asked for the truth, you get it: I was secretly running the Ultras on a pair of bash300 plate amps I had hidden behind the stereo closet, and the 24 was directly fed by a new concept I have been working on where I pull current directly from the hydroelectric plant next to my house (That every single one of you failed to notice apparently...  )

 

I had also hot-glued the coils on the ultras shut, and finally, dropped rufalin in everyone's IPA's before we got started while my grill I bought straight from the devil himself was scorching those disgusting hotdogs and hamburgers chop brought all the way down from Conn. Hell, the meat was probably rotten anyways, supplementing that nice buzz those pills gave everyone.

 

I should have known. Just when you think a GTG is going good...

[BeastAudio]

Lol. Geez. You guys sure are sensitive. Why regret it? Did you or anyone else not have a great time? I wish I could have gone, I would have loved it.

 

 

 

 

Mmmm.... burgers.

 

All joking aside, I am honestly pumped that my g2g is still referenced on the reg. Might go down as the most controversial ever.... I aim to please, and everyone in attendance I am positive had a good time.

 

Oh and those burgers were off the planet.....Incredibly good. 

[lukeamdman]

All joking aside, I am honestly pumped that my g2g is still referenced on the reg. Might go down as the most controversial ever.... I aim to please, and everyone in attendance I am positive had a good time.

 

Oh and those burgers were off the planet.....Incredibly good. 

 

Jonathan had a doozie with that Chase sub and the inuke3000 

 

That still gets brought up every now and then!

[Bossobass Dave]

All joking aside, I am honestly pumped that my g2g is still referenced on the reg. Might go down as the most controversial ever.... I aim to please, and everyone in attendance I am positive had a good time.

 

Oh and those burgers were off the planet.....Incredibly good. 

 

The GTG was epic fun.

 

There's no controversy when a dozen serial bassheads hand down a unanimous decision. It's the peanut gallery that always stirs the pot.

 

The HS24 trounced the pair of LMS, fanboi bullshit notwithstanding.

 

It's a shame that the little comparo of the single 24 vs a pair of 18s overshadows the star of the day, which was your 8 x HT18 system. Your system was properly set up and handled everything thrown at it with no drips, runs or errors. IMO, HTTYD Red Death crash scene is in the top 3 most difficult to accurately reproduce scenes ever. Your system was only down around -6dB at 3 Hz with no visible non-linearities shown in the digits vs mic'd comparison caps.

 

I've fielded every manner of bullshit on the subject over more years than I should have had to, but the bottom line is that the effect is there and very few people can say they've experienced it as it exists on the disc. Like it, hate it, pretend it isn't there, judge it's importance, say it's really 20dB attenuated from the SL cap, claim your ported ID sub plays it with no problems and on and on... The bottom line is that your system sounded stellar from top to bottom with all source and it was very much appreciated as the rarity it is. The attendees were all as cool as ice, the food was top shelf, the stories were worth the trip in themselves and I got to meet Rowdy Roddy the Beast from the East.

 

How you gonna beat that? ... You ain't.

[BeastAudio]

Thanks for the kind words Dave!

[Infrasonic]

All joking aside, I am honestly pumped that my g2g is still referenced on the reg. Might go down as the most controversial ever.... I aim to please, and everyone in attendance I am positive had a good time.

 

Oh and those burgers were off the planet.....Incredibly good. 

 

 

The GTG was epic fun.

 

There's no controversy when a dozen serial bassheads hand down a unanimous decision. It's the peanut gallery that always stirs the pot.

 

The HS24 trounced the pair of LMS, fanboi bullshit notwithstanding.

 

It's a shame that the little comparo of the single 24 vs a pair of 18s overshadows the star of the day, which was your 8 x HT18 system. Your system was properly set up and handled everything thrown at it with no drips, runs or errors. IMO, HTTYD Red Death crash scene is in the top 3 most difficult to accurately reproduce scenes ever. Your system was only down around -6dB at 3 Hz with no visible non-linearities shown in the digits vs mic'd comparison caps.

 

I've fielded every manner of bullshit on the subject over more years than I should have had to, but the bottom line is that the effect is there and very few people can say they've experienced it as it exists on the disc. Like it, hate it, pretend it isn't there, judge it's importance, say it's really 20dB attenuated from the SL cap, claim your ported ID sub plays it with no problems and on and on... The bottom line is that your system sounded stellar from top to bottom with all source and it was very much appreciated as the rarity it is. The attendees were all as cool as ice, the food was top shelf, the stories were worth the trip in themselves and I got to meet Rowdy Roddy the Beast from the East.

 

How you gonna beat that? ... You ain't.

 

 

Exactly this. We do this because it's fun and we are interested in the same things. Gotta take a step back sometimes and appreciate all the good parts of this hobby. GTG's like the one brought up at Brandon's with the SI24 are worth talking about.

 

And just like movies... maybe you like a particular movie and another didn't like it. But a year later we're still talking about that movie. That means something.

[Electrodynamic]

The thing that I have no problem "admitting" was BEAST's eight HT-18's hanging with some serious LFE output regardless of what was being compared. Not only were they hanging with it, but the drivers were barely moving. Some people reading this need to not read too far into it - don't quote me as if my text was sent down from our world creator, but BEAST's eight 18's were moving less than 2" p-p when I put my hand on them during the most demanding sessions. The later the evening got, the more libations consumed, the more the volume got turned up more and more and the HT-18's never talked back. Serious serious LFE substance...and he (BEAST) was one of the first people to implement such a formidable subwoofer array after the drivers arrival on the market. 

[Electrodynamic]

Nick, your reading comprehension needs some work (ya, I'm being condescending), but seriously, it does. I didn't say you were directing condescending comments at PI. I also didn't say you bashed AVS in that thread. I said you bashed AVS in this thread and forum.

 

Your use of hyperbole to make my concerns seem irrational (300db @ 2hz) is once again condescending. It's getting old. You coming here pretending the exchange of comments was something other than what it was, doesn't make it so.

 

Lastly, if I am one of the people that makes people stop posting on forums, I think you need to take a step back and evaluate who the fuck you're talking to. I don't usually talk like this, but there's more than a few people who have my back and who look to me for technical information and input on purchasing decisions. You've bitten the hand that feeds you multiple times now. You're about to chew it right off.

 

Cursing at someone is your way of making a point. Well done. 

 

I have no doubt you have your personal army of PM buddies that will post to the end of time referencing chopping comparable driver arrays in 1/3, 1/18'th, etc, to prove your point against the HS-24. I suppose you were correct that I am "chew[ing] it right off." Have fun. Maybe you can parade around on AVS with this saying "Lang lebe unser ruhmvoller Führer!" and see how many followers you get. I know someone else that said the latter and gained a lot of followers.   

 

There is nothing I can say or prove to you that will stop you posting erroneous rebuttals, if I indulged, because you would keep going. There is no end to it. 

[Infrasonic]

The thing that I have no problem "admitting" was BEAST's eight HT-18's hanging with some serious LFE output regardless of what was being compared. Not only were they hanging with it, but the drivers were barely moving. Some people reading this need to not read too far into it - don't quote me as if my text was sent down from our world creator, but BEAST's eight 18's were moving less than 2" p-p when I put my hand on them during the most demanding sessions. The later the evening got, the more libations consumed, the more the volume got turned up more and more and the HT-18's never talked back. Serious serious LFE substance...and he (BEAST) was one of the first people to implement such a formidable subwoofer array after the drivers arrival on the market. 

 

Eight of your HT18's is the real deal.

[Shredhead]

All joking aside, I am honestly pumped that my g2g is still referenced on the reg. Might go down as the most controversial ever.... I aim to please, and everyone in attendance I am positive had a good time.

 

Let's just re-do your original gtg B.  Gage, bring the LMS cabs back, Ricci, fork over that box for the 24, I'll bring a car full of measurement tools, EQ, amps and document so much data that it will take at least a month to sort through it before posting.  Then everyone who would normally nit pick the event to death who didn't attend can eat plates of shit.

 

Oh, we'll need a notary there to stamp the legal document I'll have drawn up and you as the gtg attendees will have to be my witnesses that I'm accurately recording what the tools read or else that'll be the next thing that gets brought up as a reason to discount Beast's gtg2.0 re-do.  We'll also need an electrical power engineer there to sign off on the grid power for that day cause you know... line sag and shit.  A quality control team for inspection of drivers, enclosures, wires and amplifiers.  I'll look up a local weather guy so he can document the atmospheric pressure...

[coolrda]

So if I show up, your not gonna ask for my passport and fingerprints are you? Here's an idea, podcast it. Use whatever for cameras, cells , iPads, laptops, whatever. You can gets those cams for next to nothing. That would be nuts. Worlds first, afaik. I guarantee if be watching. Just a thought.

[coolrda]

Eight of your HT18's is the real deal.

I second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth that.

[coolrda]

Skype it. That's the word I was looking for.

[Infrasonic]

Let's just re-do your original gtg B.  Gage, bring the LMS cabs back, Ricci, fork over that box for the 24, I'll bring a car full of measurement tools, EQ, amps and document so much data that it will take at least a month to sort through it before posting.  Then everyone who would normally nit pick the event to death who didn't attend can eat plates of shit.

 

Oh, we'll need a notary there to stamp the legal document I'll have drawn up and you as the gtg attendees will have to be my witnesses that I'm accurately recording what the tools read or else that'll be the next thing that gets brought up as a reason to discount Beast's gtg2.0 re-do.  We'll also need an electrical power engineer there to sign off on the grid power for that day cause you know... line sag and shit.  A quality control team for inspection of drivers, enclosures, wires and amplifiers.  I'll look up a local weather guy so he can document the atmospheric pressure...

 

 

Skype it. That's the word I was looking for.

 

People will still find a way to nitpick the GTG.

[MKtheater]

GTG's are awesome and are never perfect. People don't realize how fast time flies and you run out of time for something.

[coolrda]

Not so much to prove anything but just for the entertainment factor. All these GTG seem like a weekly thing out east. The Rockies might as well be the Berlin Wall for us Cally's. I don't need to see everything obviously, Seeing you eat those burgers Beast was talking about is just gonna piss me off. But some of the crazy stuff would be cool, people reactions, meter peak readouts, whatever you desire, well try to keep it PG13. Anyway if you wanna edit it after for high production value or do a live podcast I'll take it.

[BeastAudio]

Ive been planning on getting a couple dropcams for a little while and they would be perfect for something like this. Although I don't know how many people can be logged in and viewing the feed at the same time... 

[Bossobass Dave]

I'm not convinced real time video would change much. There really just is not enough time to cover all bases. The GTGs aren't federally funded scientific research expeditions. It's a great time for those who attend and their subsequent reports are a gift to those who couldn't attend. We learn some things, confirm some things and enjoy meeting new people and greeting previously met people. We listen, talk hardware, eat, drink and are merry.

 

We had 2 simple goals; 1) play some stuff really loud through 16-15"-ers powered by >20KW burst and 2) load up a pair of Nick's HST-15 drivers to see if his specs and claims hold water, both at the GTG and in longer term testing.

 

The HST drivers are extremely well built and don't fart until >44mm one-way throw, measured. Harmonic distortion is inherent to any hardware in the chain that's driven to that sort of extreme. The point here is that the drivers don't self-destruct and the harmonics, as a %, are all but irrelevant, especially compared to the fuss made over the phenomenon. The surround is crazy-fat but has a great semi-gloss look that's easy to clean. The hidden part (back plate, mag stack, top plate and basket) is superbly crafted as are the parts you do see (surround, cone and dust cap), and that goes for all of the SI drivers we've tested thus far.

 

Nick and his old man are top notch folk. Nick went out of his way to build the pair and lug them down the road for us and he has left them here for us to test to death. I wish I had drivers like these available back in the day. They're an asset to any GTG and I highly recommend them both as A-list people to anyone planning a GTG.

 

And, for the cynical douchebag hater-types, no, I do not use the HST-15 in any commercial venture, I am not a shill for Stereo Integrity or any other driver company and please stop the inferences as they're the height of annoying. I've loaded a few different SI drivers into various enclosures over the past year or so and we found then to deliver pretty much exactly what Nick claimed they would deliver. I find the people who have attempted to impugn his integrity intolerable.

 

For years now, I've maintained the obvious; that GP testing is a good metric for comparing certain electrical and mechanical attributes amongst drivers tested similarly by one person. And, apparently, according to experts, you can't even compare those done by the same guy. When Ilkka did his 200L vs 75L box size test using the LMS-U, I did comparison results with his data. In one of them, because I thought (and still do) that stuffing the smallest box that you can fit the driver into to further reduce it's interior volume was a bit eccentric, I included the original 100L box results. Ilkka promptly e-mailed me to object, saying "Those measurements were done a year apart, so you can't compare them!".

 

But, the real proof is in the pudding where we get to experiment with many different signal shaped native responses in infinite enclosure sizes using many power plant topologies with many different features within each of those topologies while using actual, full bandwidth soundtrack source as input signal. Additionally, we get to place the enclosure, and then multiples of the enclosure, in different places in a room and observe things like the drastic drop in THD as a % due to boundary gain and mitigation of room effects by placement, cross point and delay tweaks, etc.

 

Thanks, Luke, Rowdy Roddy, Paul, Tim, Nick, Marty and Virginia. I learned some things, confirmed some things, ate, drank and was merry.

[mojave]

Not so much to prove anything but just for the entertainment factor. All these GTG seem like a weekly thing out east. The Rockies might as well be the Berlin Wall for us Cally's. I don't need to see everything obviously, Seeing you eat those burgers Beast was talking about is just gonna piss me off. But some of the crazy stuff would be cool, people reactions, meter peak readouts, whatever you desire, well try to keep it PG13. Anyway if you wanna edit it after for high production value or do a live podcast I'll take it.

I used to live in Lancaster, CA, but don't recall you ever holding a GTG.  I did fly out to Sacramento last year for an AVS GTG. I thought about flying up to lukeamdguy's, but tickets are $550+. The flight is only an hour! For my round trip tickets to Sacramento I only paid around $270 including car rental for the weekend. Flights are weird with how they are priced.

[MemX]

To add more to my, still, claim that it takes 4 LMS-U's to keep up with / out-perform (I'm sure that select people will tell me which of the latter I have said in the past) is that the LMS-U is a linear topology woofer and the HS-24 is not. Linear topology woofers are perceived by the human ear as having less output than their overhung competition. For the same actual SPL the linear topology woofer will sound quieter due to the reduction in non-linear BL induced harmonic distortion found in overhung topologies with the same / similar one-way linear excursion. If you own a Term Lab you can accurately measure the SPL from both systems and see for yourself. Three or four LMS-U's will be able to over-drive an OmniMic system so you will need a more accurate high-SPL system such as a Term Lab or carefully calibrated REW system with a properly good / proper mic. 

 

To ask what is probably a silly question, is this because the motor force at the limits of excursion is weaker, meaning there is less 'slam' / 'impact' from the driver but the overall volume output will be the same due to the overall amount of air being moved being the same (just less forcefully)??

[Infrasonic]

To ask what is probably a silly question, is this because the motor force at the limits of excursion is weaker, meaning there is less 'slam' / 'impact' from the driver but the overall volume output will be the same due to the overall amount of air being moved being the same (just less forcefully)??

 

Also, the LMS will be much less susceptible to changes in the T/S with current. This includes inductance but also motor force and other properties. With more throw the 24" will eventually change it's response shape the further it goes out of the gap (this isn't isolated to SI drivers so don't jump on me saying that. It is inherent in ALL overhung driver motors) and it's electromechanical properties will be much less linear.

 

This is why the Ultra is so awesome. Being the best subwoofer driver is not just about pure displacement numbers. So often we forget about that. It's always about MOAR BASS, YO!!!

[Electrodynamic]

I'm not convinced real time video would change much. There really just is not enough time to cover all bases. The GTGs aren't federally funded scientific research expeditions. It's a great time for those who attend and their subsequent reports are a gift to those who couldn't attend. We learn some things, confirm some things and enjoy meeting new people and greeting previously met people. We listen, talk hardware, eat, drink and are merry.

 

We had 2 simple goals; 1) play some stuff really loud through 16-15"-ers powered by >20KW burst and 2) load up a pair of Nick's HST-15 drivers to see if his specs and claims hold water, both at the GTG and in longer term testing.

 

The HST drivers are extremely well built and don't fart until >44mm one-way throw, measured. Harmonic distortion is inherent to any hardware in the chain that's driven to that sort of extreme. The point here is that the drivers don't self-destruct and the harmonics, as a %, are all but irrelevant, especially compared to the fuss made over the phenomenon. The surround is crazy-fat but has a great semi-gloss look that's easy to clean. The hidden part (back plate, mag stack, top plate and basket) is superbly crafted as are the parts you do see (surround, cone and dust cap), and that goes for all of the SI drivers we've tested thus far.

 

Nick and his old man are top notch folk. Nick went out of his way to build the pair and lug them down the road for us and he has left them here for us to test to death. I wish I had drivers like these available back in the day. They're an asset to any GTG and I highly recommend them both as A-list people to anyone planning a GTG.

 

And, for the cynical douchebag hater-types, no, I do not use the HST-15 in any commercial venture, I am not a shill for Stereo Integrity or any other driver company and please stop the inferences as they're the height of annoying. I've loaded a few different SI drivers into various enclosures over the past year or so and we found then to deliver pretty much exactly what Nick claimed they would deliver. I find the people who have attempted to impugn his integrity intolerable.

 

For years now, I've maintained the obvious; that GP testing is a good metric for comparing certain electrical and mechanical attributes amongst drivers tested similarly by one person. And, apparently, according to experts, you can't even compare those done by the same guy. When Ilkka did his 200L vs 75L box size test using the LMS-U, I did comparison results with his data. In one of them, because I thought (and still do) that stuffing the smallest box that you can fit the driver into to further reduce it's interior volume was a bit eccentric, I included the original 100L box results. Ilkka promptly e-mailed me to object, saying "Those measurements were done a year apart, so you can't compare them!".

 

But, the real proof is in the pudding where we get to experiment with many different signal shaped native responses in infinite enclosure sizes using many power plant topologies with many different features within each of those topologies while using actual, full bandwidth soundtrack source as input signal. Additionally, we get to place the enclosure, and then multiples of the enclosure, in different places in a room and observe things like the drastic drop in THD as a % due to boundary gain and mitigation of room effects by placement, cross point and delay tweaks, etc.

 

Thanks, Luke, Rowdy Roddy, Paul, Tim, Nick, Marty and Virginia. I learned some things, confirmed some things, ate, drank and was merry.

 

I agree. If you [Dave] were an SI fan-boy and used anything / everything I produce, then the drivers in your Raptors are SI's, right? Nope. Dave uses other drivers in his Raptors and they perform fantastic. His drivers aren't mine and they kick ass. 

 

The point of the GTG was simply to take some measurements, play around a little bit, and have a good time. Mission accomplished. Hell, I've had a few people ask for the T/S's on the HST-15's but I only have the T/S's from the single prototype I built over a year ago. The two units I built and brought to your place are actual production units but I forgot to pull T/S's on them or take pictures of them before I brought them down, LOL. 

 

*edit* One of the coolest things about Dave is his conviction for ultra LFE. Ported down to 20 Hz won't work for the guy. It is really neat to experience his Raptor system and feel the internal organ attack confirming his conviction.