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Interstellar - Discussion & Poll - CLOSED

Interstellar  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Execution?

  2. 2. Recommendation?



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Thanks Bosso.

 

I guess the older 93 might have the same problem. I would need confirm this using speclabs and the SW analogue out then. I use hdmi out bitstream but was wanting to go full analogue when i upgraded to a 105. Now I'll wait then. I guess this makes some speclab grabs that i did for avs some time ago questionable as it was done thru the SW out with bass management.

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Thanks Bosso.

 

I guess the older 93 might have the same problem. I would need confirm this using speclabs and the SW analogue out then. I use hdmi out bitstream but was wanting to go full analogue when i upgraded to a 105. Now I'll wait then. I guess this makes some speclab grabs that i did for avs some time ago questionable as it was done thru the SW out with bass management.

 

 

Actually, Audioholics found this problem 5 years ago when testing the OPPO BDP-83 and 83SE. Here's a snippet from comments on the results:

 

 

What was perplexing however was the outrageously high distortion from the subwoofer channel of the BDP-83SE.  We double checked this with the built in digital Oscilloscope feature of the Audio Precision and could see visible clipping of the test signal.  The output signal level was 2.7Vrms so we knocked the subwoofer trim down -10dB figuring the opamps were hitting the rails causing it to clip, and retested.  The sub output level dropped to around 1Vrms but was still clipping hard.  We retested using a -20dBFS test signal and boosted the subwoofer level to +10dB which would give us about the same 1Vrms output level that clipped the subwoofer channel before.  This time the distortion levels were similar to the other channels (< 0.05% THD + N).  What this told us was that the BDP-83SE was not properly handling 0dBFS digital output levels when recombining into the subwoofer channel

 

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Gnaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!

 

How did I miss this?!?

 

http://www.royalalberthall.com/tickets/interstellar/default.aspx

 

Gutted :(

I work with the person whose brother this event was dedicated too.  He passed recently and was good friends with Hans Zimmer.  Unfortunately the guy i work with didn't appreciate it at all.  I actually thought it was a private event so didn't think i could go.  Also gutted, more so as i knew about it in advance, although i doubt by this time there were ticket left - that's what I tell myself anyway!

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I thought David Lynch movies were hard to follow....... There were a couple of moments that impressed me in this. When the noise stopped and went dead still, that impressed me...... Otherwise I found this to be a real mess I watched with all channels except the centre at -4. The centre was set at +4. I even lowered the bass slightly which is something I NEVER do. After all this amateur equalising I think it sounded as good as I could get it. A shame because some of the visuals in this film were pretty spectacular. Pity the audio didn't do it justice.

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I didn't have any real issues with the audio, but it did seem a bit out of balance with music and effects so I can understand the complaints. Bass felt a bit odd to me for whatever reason as it was certainly powerful, but felt a bit incomplete or maybe just too focused in one area (30hz looking at the graph)? I don't know, but I was not all that impressed with the audio in general. Don't get me wrong as some of those bass moments were a lot of fun, but they could have been better I'm thinking.

 

Whatever clipping was there was nowhere near as distracting/obvious as Godzilla which I was pleased about.

 

I thought the movie was dull as it put me to sleep and this one did very little for me in general for whatever reason. Going to give it another spin though before it goes back to NF as I might have just been in the wrong mood for it, who knows.

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I was just wondering, is there any reason think that the plain DTS track would be different?  The DTS-MA was taken right from the IMAX sound track correct?  I would be curious to see if there were differences between the two?  I know we all want the high def audio, but if the DTS track is better in the way of clipping, then maybe that might be the better track for this movie.  Any chance of that getting measured?  Just a thought :).

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This clipping subject is interesting to me.

 

Like when the house curve craze swept the HT crowd, I called it distortion and many people commented that I was incorrectly referring to that sort of FR as distortion and asked why I would say something like that.

 

Point being that distortion has such a terribly bad connotation that, to those who subjectively preferred a house curve, calling it distortion (which it clearly is) was unacceptable as it made 'house curve' sound like a terribly wrong or bad thing.

 

We don't know if this is clipping or limiting or a combination of both (and, Max, I disagree... there's a big difference in sound between the 2, IMO). And we can be almost certain that whichever it is, it was a creative decision and not an error in production. The dynamics rating missed 5 stars by less than a dB and a half. Being as close to a space rocket takeoff, or inside the cockpit as the movie offers to viewers, in reality would most certainly sound distorted and make it near impossible to hear the crew's conversation.

 

And, it is not a one-note sound design. Look at the SL cap. There are integers of 30 Hz to above cross, exactly like a 30 Hz fundamental with about 30% THD to beyond 4HD. 30 Hz, 60 Hz, 90 Hz, 120 Hz, with content at -30dB from maximum to <3 Hz and multi-frequency spread in between and that's only one scene of less than a minute.

 

But, as soon as someone mentions clipping, the negative connotation that implies dominates the perception.

 

I thought it was extremely fun stuff and the clipping didn't offend my ears at all. I have zero reference in my experience for what it sounds like in a spaceship while accelerating into a black hole, so the production team's interpretation is as open to artistic license as it gets.

 

Just 2 cents, while the thread remains open and the subject is on topic. :)

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I work with the person whose brother this event was dedicated too.  He passed recently and was good friends with Hans Zimmer.  Unfortunately the guy i work with didn't appreciate it at all.  I actually thought it was a private event so didn't think i could go.  Also gutted, more so as i knew about it in advance, although i doubt by this time there were ticket left - that's what I tell myself anyway!

Helloooo!  I'm glad you have joined up! :)

 

The above is both an awesome link to Hans Zimmer and also a shame in more than one way - that the guy has passed, that his brother did not appreciate it at all (whyever not?!  is he a bit of an unappreciative twat at work, in your experience??), and that you missed a chance to go too.

 

Would be super-cool if Hans remains in touch with the guy's family and was open to meeting up with randoms like us B) lol

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This clipping subject is interesting to me.

 

Like when the house curve craze swept the HT crowd, I called it distortion and many people commented that I was incorrectly referring to that sort of FR as distortion and asked why I would say something like that.

 

Point being that distortion has such a terribly bad connotation that, to those who subjectively preferred a house curve, calling it distortion (which it clearly is) was unacceptable as it made 'house curve' sound like a terribly wrong or bad thing.

 

We don't know if this is clipping or limiting or a combination of both (and, Max, I disagree... there's a big difference in sound between the 2, IMO). And we can be almost certain that whichever it is, it was a creative decision and not an error in production. The dynamics rating missed 5 stars by less than a dB and a half. Being as close to a space rocket takeoff, or inside the cockpit as the movie offers to viewers, in reality would most certainly sound distorted and make it near impossible to hear the crew's conversation.

 

And, it is not a one-note sound design. Look at the SL cap. There are integers of 30 Hz to above cross, exactly like a 30 Hz fundamental with about 30% THD to beyond 4HD. 30 Hz, 60 Hz, 90 Hz, 120 Hz, with content at -30dB from maximum to <3 Hz and multi-frequency spread in between and that's only one scene of less than a minute.

 

But, as soon as someone mentions clipping, the negative connotation that implies dominates the perception.

 

I thought it was extremely fun stuff and the clipping didn't offend my ears at all. I have zero reference in my experience for what it sounds like in a spaceship while accelerating into a black hole, so the production team's interpretation is as open to artistic license as it gets.

 

Just 2 cents, while the thread remains open and the subject is on topic. :)

 

I agree about the intent.  Most all of Iron Man and Iron Man 2's repulsors are clipped waveforms.  I believe this was completely intentional.  Nearly every recording we have of a rocket/shuttle launch is also clipped, and this is what our ears are used to hearing represented as a launch.  The sonic levels involved would also 'clip' our ears, so it definitely was probably intentional in certain scenes.  The clipping in Tron:Legacy and Thor appear to be errors in production, occuring so frequently.

 

While limiters are essentially just very high ratio compressors, I do not like anything that can produce flat tops (unless that is the intent of the soundtrack, like above) as a result, as it indicates the loss of data that could have been present above the signal level that was limited/clipped away (typically only brickwall limiters can accomplish this).  No way to regain this data unless the film is remixed from the individual elements to avoid hitting the limiters or 0dBFS.

 

All that being said, I loved the film.  It was as scientifically accurate as it could be, showing the omnipresent problems of space travel, notably gravity and special relativity.  Getting outside of Earth's gravity is the hardest and most energy-consuming part of any journey beyond Earth, and to think gravity is the WEAKEST force of them all, a full 36 orders of magnitude weaker than the electromagnetic force!  Special relativity is also inescapable.  People moving faster will age slower than those not.  Neither ages in an accelerated/slowed fashion, as time goes by for each just as quickly in each frame of reference.  It is only when one frame of reference is compared to the other that a difference can be seen.

 

 

JSS

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I agree about the intent.  Most all of Iron Man and Iron Man 2's repulsors are clipped waveforms.  I believe this was completely intentional.  Nearly every recording we have of a rocket/shuttle launch is also clipped, and this is what our ears are used to hearing represented as a launch.  The sonic levels involved would also 'clip' our ears, so it definitely was probably intentional in certain scenes.  The clipping in Tron:Legacy and Thor appear to be errors in production, occuring so frequently.

 

While limiters are essentially just very high ratio compressors, I do not like anything that can produce flat tops (unless that is the intent of the soundtrack, like above) as a result, as it indicates the loss of data that could have been present above the signal level that was limited/clipped away (typically only brickwall limiters can accomplish this).  No way to regain this data unless the film is remixed from the individual elements to avoid hitting the limiters or 0dBFS.

 

All that being said, I loved the film.  It was as scientifically accurate as it could be, showing the omnipresent problems of space travel, notably gravity and special relativity.  Getting outside of Earth's gravity is the hardest and most energy-consuming part of any journey beyond Earth, and to think gravity is the WEAKEST force of them all, a full 36 orders of magnitude weaker than the electromagnetic force!  Special relativity is also inescapable.  People moving faster will age slower than those not.  Neither ages in an accelerated/slowed fashion, as time goes by for each just as quickly in each frame of reference.  It is only when one frame of reference is compared to the other that a difference can be seen.

 

 

JSS

 

 

Wow.  That was a great post to read at 12:08am.  Hopefully I can sit down and watch it all the way through soon.

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Helloooo!  I'm glad you have joined up! :)

 

The above is both an awesome link to Hans Zimmer and also a shame in more than one way - that the guy has passed, that his brother did not appreciate it at all (whyever not?!  is he a bit of an unappreciative twat at work, in your experience??), and that you missed a chance to go too.

 

Would be super-cool if Hans remains in touch with the guy's family and was open to meeting up with randoms like us B) lol

 

 

Yeah I've been lurking for awhile, reading about what Im missing!  :)

 

The brother is a biologist and it all went over his head, but he's a really nice guy.  Ha, no i dont think we can use him to meet Mr Zimmer  :)

 

I thought the soundtrack was great, big and bombastic and matched his ambition (or usual style!) for the movie, no matter how daft it is at times.  Great fun.

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Yeah I've been lurking for awhile, reading about what Im missing!  :)

 

The brother is a biologist and it all went over his head, but he's a really nice guy.  Ha, no i dont think we can use him to meet Mr Zimmer  :)

 

I thought the soundtrack was great, big and bombastic and matched his ambition (or usual style!) for the movie, no matter how daft it is at times.  Great fun.

Well, I'm glad to hear he's a good guy - I think we've probably all been in a situation at least once in our lives that we didn't fully appreciate at the time!

 

I need to wait for a) it to get cheap ;) and b ) the new neighbours downstairs to actually go out for more than 20 bloody minutes a day...  grrr!

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Decided to give this another shot last night when I was in a fully conscious/rested state (was worn out Fri night when I tried to watch this) and enjoyed the movie much more than my first watch. Not only that, I was more impressed with the audio/mix as well. I thought the audio track supported the film very well and the bass, while not the deepest, was used to excellent effect in a number of scenes with the two highlights (both being demo worthy IMO) being the wormhole and the black hole sections. I did not notice any clipping besides maybe some in one of the rocket launch scenes which could easily be intentional as it seemed like part of the sound effect. Great audio track IMO and vote changed from 3 to a 4.

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I hope this movie gets the bass eq treatment, because there is some power down low.  Even with the roll-off, there's a decent amount of action.  It's not a constant bass-fest, but when it hit, there was some authority.  I went into this thinking it would be a mess like TDKR, but it sounded quite a bit better to me.

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I was pretty harsh on this one as well and on reflection if it was the whole audio I was marking the score would still stand but for the bass only I have marked up a notch. Still only scrapes in for a three. Very polarising movie.

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Had to go 4 simply for the level of the 30hz stuff as it was T4 fun, and hey! bass energy is just bass energy sometimes. Don't go into this one for fidelity & dynamic range or a lot of variation for that matter, in the end truth be told, I'd be happy giving it a 3.5.

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Yes, searching for new options as the OPPO's performance is appallingly bad :rolleyes:  and the company's response is pathetic. :angry:

 

Oppo can smooch it.

 

Looking at the Marantz AV7702 pre/pro. Their techs also had a "We dunno how to measure frequency response, you'll hafta do it yourself" response to my Qs, so I'll just have to buy it, measure it and keep/return based on the results.

 

Thanks to MAXimus for the 7.1 WCS test disc as it was what led us to scrutinize the OPPO pile o crap.

Dave, what is the story with the oppo? Is it just the 105?  I have the 103 and have said a few times I thought it was a piece of crap, but then the oppo lovers came to defend it.  A new BD player is on my list of things need for my theater as I need one for my living room set up and plan on relocating the 103 to the living room when I get a new one. The Denon and Cambridge were a couple I was looking at. 

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Dave, what is the story with the oppo? Is it just the 105?  I have the 103 and have said a few times I thought it was a piece of crap, but then the oppo lovers came to defend it.  A new BD player is on my list of things need for my theater as I need one for my living room set up and plan on relocating the 103 to the living room when I get a new one. The Denon and Cambridge were a couple I was looking at. 

The very short version:

 

SW channel bass + redirected bass from speaker channels = clip-tastic SW channel output because the digital summing internally is not done properly (it clips before it reaches the user interface, so will clip regardless of volume).

 

 

I think that's a correct summing up of the situation?  If not, call me Oppo and throw me out the window :lol: lol.

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I thought I was the only one in the world who felt the same way about the Oppo as I was hung drawn and quartered for daring to question the quality of the product at times. Glad to see it wasn't just me.

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I thought I was the only one in the world who felt the same way about the Oppo as I was hung drawn and quartered for daring to question the quality of the product at times. Glad to see it wasn't just me.

Sadly, many people with a grand invested in a product will be resistant to criticism, even when presented with evidence, due to needing to justify their expenditure to themselves and in an attempt to shore up secondhand values for when they sell...  lol

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Dave, what is the story with the oppo? Is it just the 105?  I have the 103 and have said a few times I thought it was a piece of crap, but then the oppo lovers came to defend it.  A new BD player is on my list of things need for my theater as I need one for my living room set up and plan on relocating the 103 to the living room when I get a new one. The Denon and Cambridge were a couple I was looking at. 

 

 

Keep in mind the issues described by bosso is ONLY when you are using the analog outs of the oppo. If you are just bitstreaming the signal via HDMI to your Denon, there are no issues.....

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As Brandon said, it's the analog SW out that we tested. We tested both the 105 and the 103 and this problem was found by AH in their tests 5 years ago with the 83 and 83SE.

 

If you pay $1.3k for the 105 and only bitstream, you need your head examined, IMO.

 

I would also mention that without any active cooling the 105 runs hot enough to fry eggs and that's never good for the longevity of any electronic hardware.

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If you pay $1.3k for the 105 and only bitstream, you need your head examined, IMO.

 

 

Isn't that what you are now doing? ;) Haha. Well, not funny, the whole situation is not funny at ALL.

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I would sell it over at AVS.  It may command a pretty good price given all the manufactured good pub it gets over there.

 

JSS

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