Bossobass Dave Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I'm now looking to relegate the Oppo "Flagship" BDP-105 to SACD/DVD-A only and going with a new signal chain to the subwoofer system. I'd like to be as future-proof as possible regarding Atmos audio and 4K video. I'd like a clean signal in a WCS movie like ETE, EOT, WOTW, HTTYD, etc. I like multi-channel Hi-Rez music and all formats of movies, current and future. I never watch TV and currently don't care much about streaming quality because I only occasionally use Netflix and not for it's sound/audio quality. My current focus is on the Marantz AV 7702 Pre/Pro: Need a loopback frequency response and to see if the analog SW out passes the WCS test. It would be awesome if someone has this info vs me having to buy one and test it myself. Any thoughts on this piece and what player to bitstream to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 That's a unit I was considering as well. Hopefully someone who has it can help fill in some blanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I think BeastAudio has one (or is getting one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Got one Although I will gladly test anything you guys want, I think the best move is to wait for the 8802. There is still one codec left in the air, being DTS:X. the 7702 won't get it, the 8802 will. Assuming that so many of the great mixes are DTS and not Dolby over the last decade, I would venture a guess that having the ability to play this codec will be quite important once it is ironed out and content begins to roll into homes. The first rollouts of the 8802 will not have the DTS;X on them, but (the very good) odds are it will be a software update later this Spring. The first rollouts of the 8802 will ALSO not have HDCP 2.2 for full complaint 4k passing but the unit will in fact be able to be HARDware updated to the 2.2 compliant board. It will require you to send the unit back. I will be moving to the 8802 sometime this summer. For now however, I am ABSOLUTELY loving the 7702 and the atmos/DSU upmixing effects :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 The 8802 is twice as expensive for what really doesn't seem to be much more capability. What are the odds that the 7702 would not be upgradeable with these same items? There is also the new Onkyo PR-SC5530 which seems to have much of this capability as well. Personally I don't see me updating to a giant 4K screen for a few years. Anyway if you have read about the issues with the Oppo and some other pieces of gear passing a worst case signal, it would be great if you could run Max's WCS 7.1 signal through and see when or where it falls on its face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted March 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 The AV7702 has Atmos and Auro-3D. That will be enough for me to decide if I like the 2 plane speaker layout. I plan to install a 5.1.4 Atmos and try it before I commit to it in an upgrade path vein with specifically designed ceiling speakers. If DTS takes the cake in the end, I'll just upgrade the player and send LPCM to the Marantz. For now, I'll settle for a loopback FR from the SW out jack. EDIT: And, FWIW, I have not had great luck with Onkyo. Their AVRs crapped out (the 2 I've owned over the years) and the SQ is thin to me compared to other preamps. I've wanted Marantz for decades and never owned one. I hope my admiration hasn't been misplaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 The 8802 is twice as expensive for what really doesn't seem to be much more capability. What are the odds that the 7702 would not be upgradeable with these same items? There is also the new Onkyo PR-SC5530 which seems to have much of this capability as well. Personally I don't see me updating to a giant 4K screen for a few years. Anyway if you have read about the issues with the Oppo and some other pieces of gear passing a worst case signal, it would be great if you could run Max's WCS 7.1 signal through and see when or where it falls on its face. The odds are basically not a consideration here. From a source I trust, the 7702 definitely wont get 2.2, and almost definitely won't get DTS:X. i'll be the first to wipe the egg off my face for the latter, and turn around and throw it at my source afterwards if this comes back on me.... The AV7702 has Atmos and Auro-3D. That will be enough for me to decide if I like the 2 plane speaker layout. I plan to install a 5.1.4 Atmos and try it before I commit to it in an upgrade path vein with specifically designed ceiling speakers. If DTS takes the cake in the end, I'll just upgrade the player and send LPCM to the Marantz. For now, I'll settle for a loopback FR from the SW out jack. EDIT: And, FWIW, I have not had great luck with Onkyo. Their AVRs crapped out (the 2 I've owned over the years) and the SQ is thin to me compared to other preamps. I've wanted Marantz for decades and never owned one. I hope my admiration hasn't been misplaced. Man it has been too long since I have done one of those. I assume I use my uca220 mic with RCA's still or is there an internal way to do it with HDMI and all that jazz nowadays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 The Behringer USB sound cards have too much cross-talk to use both the inputs and outputs at the same time...I had to buy a second for loopback testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Dave, just fyi, you can not use the new immersive audio formats when passing decoded PCM signal. It must be bitstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 The odds are basically not a consideration here. From a source I trust, the 7702 definitely wont get 2.2, and almost definitely won't get DTS:X. i'll be the first to wipe the egg off my face for the latter, and turn around and throw it at my source afterwards if this comes back on me.... Man it has been too long since I have done one of those. I assume I use my uca220 mic with RCA's still or is there an internal way to do it with HDMI and all that jazz owadays? you might be able to go HDMI into the marantz and analogue out into your soundcard if you use REW 5.1 talking to http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/and then put the asio4all driver between that and the hdmi output/uca202 input, perhaps there is a simpler way though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemX Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 The Behringer USB sound cards have too much cross-talk to use both the inputs and outputs at the same time...I had to buy a second for loopback testing. Really? I've not seen that mentioned before - it is all I have to measure with (and I don't really want to spend out money for a second) so I hope it's not too bad?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Really? I've not seen that mentioned before - it is all I have to measure with (and I don't really want to spend out money for a second) so I hope it's not too bad?! your soundcard suffers no noise problems whatsoever when it's sitting there all lonely you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Really? I've not seen that mentioned before - it is all I have to measure with (and I don't really want to spend out money for a second) so I hope it's not too bad?! Yep. I found out while trying to use it with my EMM-6 for measurements while also using either the optical or RCA outputs for the REW sweeps. If you do a search on AVS there's a few threads on it, but basically you can't use it for loopbacks/REW measurement if it's both the output and input (unless you have two of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemX Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Damn, that's quite annoying. I will have to discard my Onkyo 818 loopback measurements then! your soundcard suffers no noise problems whatsoever when it's sitting there all lonely you know haha! I have some time off in the next couple of weeks so should get to it shortly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilmike Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yeah, the Behringer UCA202 has AWFUL crosstalk issues at low frequencies. Several other folks figured it out a while back, I've verified it with all of mine. The UM2 is far better, but still not perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shredhead Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yeah, the Behringer UCA202 has AWFUL crosstalk issues at low frequencies. Can you at least count on it's spdif out or is it completely worthless? Does the thing just feedback when analog looped and the monitor switch doesn't work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilmike Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I have never messed with the SPDIF, so I have no idea. I've only used these as analog in and out devices. I still use them regularly. Not sure that I am seeing any sort of feedback, what I'm seeing is crosstalk between the inputs and outputs. In other words, I get the signal sent to the outputs on the input side of the device with no wires connected between them. It's mostly a low-frequency phenomena. Much more detail over in the thread at AVS. I've measured the crosstalk between the headphone out and line in, as well as the line out and line in. The crosstalk at low frequencies is pretty severe when the UCA is used full-duplex, but this is a non-issue if you use a separate device on the output or input side. I saw the behavior a while back, but I first recognized what it was when I was messing with using the UCA to measure impedance. The crosstalk manifested itself as an upward trend in the lowest frequencies of my impedance measurements, and I dug into things to figure out the reason. I thought I had some actual measurements of the crosstalk handy, but I don't, they're on my laptop. The UM2 has FAR lower crosstalk levels than the UCA202/222, and it is only 20 bucks more. It also has phantom power. I've had one for a while, I will try to complete some testing done this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I have never messed with the SPDIF, so I have no idea. I've only used these as analog in and out devices. I still use them regularly. Not sure that I am seeing any sort of feedback, what I'm seeing is crosstalk between the inputs and outputs. In other words, I get the signal sent to the outputs on the input side of the device with no wires connected between them. It's mostly a low-frequency phenomena. Much more detail over in the thread at AVS. I've measured the crosstalk between the headphone out and line in, as well as the line out and line in. The crosstalk at low frequencies is pretty severe when the UCA is used full-duplex, but this is a non-issue if you use a separate device on the output or input side. I saw the behavior a while back, but I first recognized what it was when I was messing with using the UCA to measure impedance. The crosstalk manifested itself as an upward trend in the lowest frequencies of my impedance measurements, and I dug into things to figure out the reason. I thought I had some actual measurements of the crosstalk handy, but I don't, they're on my laptop. The UM2 has FAR lower crosstalk levels than the UCA202/222, and it is only 20 bucks more. It also has phantom power. I've had one for a while, I will try to complete some testing done this weekend. I saw crosstalk on the RCA inputs even when using the SPDIF output...that made me angry because I thought it would be a good work around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTD02 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 i was reading about external dacs and saw a guy with an 8801 mention that he thought an external dac rig was noticeably cleaner than his marantz avr. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90593.0 not sure if it bears any similarity to the 7702 and i didn't dig real deep to see if the guy even really knows what he is talking about. might be worth exploring...might not. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted March 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm interested in measurement results (see Shredhead's thread a la Max's 7.1 WCS disc and source material), not what some guy thinks while listening. I am interested in any possible solution, on board or outboard, I just need to see the FR and WCS test results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted March 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I asked Marantz tech for those 2 points of data related to the AV 7702 and got this response: Mr. Prunczik,1. We don’t have the means to measure the subwoofer output frequency response. This would need to be done independently.2. Your second question would also need to be tested independently. We don’t know what your source may be and we can’t necessarily assure you that the signal won’t clip if an excessive input is used or a maximum input which is summed to the LFE signal. Hey, whaddaya want for 2 grand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vxds11 Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 That's by far, one of the most laziest responses I've ever seen. What. The. Freak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 We don't have the means? Wow. Did you let them know that you could do this independently, if they could provide a unit for test? JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted March 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 I guess with a 60 day return policy, their dealer will provide a unit for testing purposes. I was just trying to save them the hassle by asking them to do it for me. Yeah, when Paul read their response he said (in a mocking voice) "Can you tell me where the 'on' button is?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojave Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 I'm interested in measurement results (see Shredhead's thread a la Max's 7.1 WCS disc and source material), not what some guy thinks while listening. I am interested in any possible solution, on board or outboard, I just need to see the FR and WCS test results. You might consider using an Edirol UA1000 for playback. I've heard they measure well. It looks like the latest drivers are for Windows 7 64-bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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