chrapladm Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 I started this thread over at HTS. Everytime I mention or start talking about SI at AVS things go down the crapper. SO I was going to just have the thread at HTS. I am a moderator and can at least make sure my thread is fun to read and watch unfold instead of the same old same old at AVS. I also wanted to make sure Dave new about this build also as I will be doing my best to emulate what he has done within my own abilities. The rest will be a copy and paste from my other HTS thread. I will later on update both threads but not copy and past everything. Everyone I enjoy reading about is here so I will be mainly posting here. I also hate posting multiple threads on multiple forums about the same exact thing. Dont know why but it irritates me so I hate doing this but oh well. These pictures are my goals for this subwoofer. I planned on just buying the subwoofers from Dave(Bosso) but shipping is going to be way too expensive and the AUD conversion is also horrible. So I am going to try and build these myself. I have built something similar before using Fi SSD 15's and they sounded great. I needed to add more 15's, bigger amp and ensure my electronics signal chain was flat enough for my liking to make that system work. That was years ago and now I am at it again.This will be a very slow build. I have SI building a single 15 right now and hopefully in a month or two will order the other to complete on cabinet. Nick just started building my 15HST and has sent me some pictures. In the picture you will see my 15HST and an 11HST being built. (David C)Here is a video a while back of the 15HST prototype also. I will eventually also be buying Bosso's amplifier which is a Lab Gruppen design Bosso amended amplifier. I will not call this a clone because it has so many changes and improvements made to it that the components hardly resemble the clone at all.I will be using a Motu 24Ao for my DAC which is pretty flat to about 5hz. There are a lot of things I know I am doing but just havent added to this thread yet.Any questions feel free to ask.Dave Bosso is an awesome guy and I wish I could afford to just buy his completed subs but can not. So I will build what I can on my own. I will be informing him on this subwoofer project because I dont want anything hidden from him.Nick has been a blast to chat with also from Stereo Integrity so this should be a very fun project. I will eventually have four of these 15HST's in dual opposed sealed cabinets. Will aim for about a 30mm excursion around 5hz. All in about 2.5-3cuft. These woofers are large so it maybe closer to 2.5cuft. BUT according to the T/S from the prototype these will work great in 1.2cuft each. So should be perfect.I could have gone with 18's but I dont have the room for those. I have very small amounts of room and 15's are as big as I can go. And frankly four 15's will be enough for me and my room after I have everything else to go with it. EQ amp ect.Cant wait to get started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKtheater Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Can you EQ/XO below 20hz with that MOTU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 This is going to be awesome. Dual opposed for the win! I know it has trended out somewhat but the benefits of this box design, along with the flexibility of beefy 15's like the HST's yields itself to better results than anything else you can imagine when you have enough displacement and power. I honestly have zero intentions of transitioning from my current D.O. build for any reason that makes any sense to me at all. I finally got to hear some orbit shifters weekend before last, and it was the last deciding factor for me to realize that my system just does it. All of it. and leaves nothing for want on the table. Ohh well, ok, I did say zero intentions...but....I am going to get to play with some very special 24" designs soon, and I hope I don't decide to just keep them in there along WITH my DO 18 towers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Beast are you getting some 24 XBL2's? LOL Luke the Motu has its limitations on EQing at 20hz I believe. You would have to use the same type of work arounds as the Behringer ones used by others. But I wont be using the Motu for EQ. I will be using Jriver. Then I can add the EQ adjustments that Max and others have shown to increase sub par bass movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Woofers are done and Nick sent me some more photos: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nube Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Being a Dual Opposed convert (thanks, Bosso!), I have to say, this is interesting. If I had any need for more output than the 4x Fi SSD-15 that I'm currently using in ~3cubes per DO box, sans amp issues, I'd be super intrigued by the HST-15 D2 you're using. I have two questions: Do you have this driver's T/S specs you can share, and the models that result from those parameters in the 2.5/3.0cuft boxes you mentioned? What made you want to upgrade from SSD-15s? More excursion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemX Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Another thread of awesomeness on here I was looking at those 11" drivers and wondering if my mother would like a discreet DO sonotube install on the floor behind the sofa but they are not cheap... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Being a Dual Opposed convert (thanks, Bosso!), I have to say, this is interesting. If I had any need for more output than the 4x Fi SSD-15 that I'm currently using in ~3cubes per DO box, sans amp issues, I'd be super intrigued by the HST-15 D2 you're using. I have two questions: Do you have this driver's T/S specs you can share, and the models that result from those parameters in the 2.5/3.0cuft boxes you mentioned? What made you want to upgrade from SSD-15s? More excursion? I wanted to buy the most SPL/value driver I could. At the time the shipping charges and conversion werent too bad. I was going to get another pair but wondered about going larger but with the same amount of Vd roughly. So I started asking around if anyone would build me a custom 21". I got a few replies and Mark from Mach Audio said if I could get some more people interested in it he will build them for me. I got AVH and a few others interested in and then the 21" was born. Although the name changed to the FTW later on. I only have the prototype T/S. Nick said they would most not change much at all. Although he said he was going to do a few things to the drivers to make them excel at ULF more. Fine by me because I will be doing everything I can in my limited space to maximize my 60-300hz range without subs. T/S 15HST D2: Qts .35 Qes .37 Qms 6.45 Fs 21hz Bl 23.49 Rms 1500watts but who really cares about this number on this forum. Sd 741cm Le ? I since sold my 21's and wont be going with Mach Audio anymore. Also the 21's ideally needed WAY to much room for me and needed 4000watts to really do anything well. SO after the wifey bought a new "L," couch I have very limited space again. So I have come full circle and will be doing 15's again. I still have my old dual SSD 15" cabinet with nothing in it in the garage. BUT this time I will be building my own enclosure and not using a sono tube. F3 in 2.5cuft for a pair of 15HST's is about 42hz. Needs about 5000watts to hit 30mm excursion at 5hz. But of coarse this is before any L/T added. Another thread of awesomeness on here I was looking at those 11" drivers and wondering if my mother would like a discreet DO sonotube install on the floor behind the sofa but they are not cheap... lol I have wanted to use those 11's in my tower speakers I am building but the shipping and cost was just too much for me. I will be going with 12's instead aimed for 40hz and up. Those 11's are BEASTS. I also liked your build MemX and that is also another reason for me wanting to go back to the original plan years ago. Before the D.O. SSD I had a THT. That was a great sub and nothing has impressed me as well as that thing. SSD did about the same impact but extended lower. Mind you I could have done much better with proper electronics and put the THT to rest. BUT anyways here we go again. Funny Maxmercy when you built your first THT I was building mine at the same time also. Man time flies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Sub'ed. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Well there ya go. Nick just sent me the measured T/S from my driver just built.: Re: 3.6 Ohms Fs: 16.6 Hz Qes: 0.34 Qms: 6.02 Qts: 0.32 Le: 3.6 Sd: 117.85 in^2 Vas: 141.6 L BL: 24.5 Mms: 527 g Sensitivity: 85 dB (1W/1M) Sensitivity: 88 dB (2.83V/1M) The new T/S need about 2.7cuft for a .7Q with a pair of 15HST's and have a F3 of 36hz. The new 15HST needs about 4200watts to hit 30mm at 5hz now verse 4600 in the older simulation. Sounds good to me. These will have a final 2ohm load going to the amplifier in stereo. I think Bosso's amp can handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemX Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Only 3cuft for a pair of 15" drivers? Wow. Fs of 16Hz should help with the low stuff?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 2.7cuft for the pair with an F3 of about 36hz. Will be putting these in the smallest enclosure I can possibly fit them in while sticking to 2.7cuft. Thats the great thing about 15's as they like much smaller enclosures than most 18's. These should be beasts and very eye opening for me. It will be about 1 year without subs by the time I get this done. Sold the FTW's a while back and only listening to my line arrays I built playing full range. So ya I need a sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Funny Maxmercy when you built your first THT I was building mine at the same time also. Man time flies. That was 6 years ago, 2nd sub I ever built after the old Cambridge Soundworks 12" bought the farm, and started me down this crazy path (if that thing had never gone bad, I'd still be thinking that CSW setup was 'the shit', and still prob listening to it today). The nicely finished THT is now in a friend's HT, as well as the SLAs and the curved array surrounds. My 2nd one got duratex'd and complements the Omni15TB for backyard sound. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ya I followed your build on your SLA's and THT. They were great. I ended up doing a similar SLA with 3x5's when you built yours. Still using them now. Always thought about building a TB just never did. Now I have an Othorn waiting to be finished. This crazy DIY world....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 So Nick got the subwoofer completed and did a little video for me. Just an awesome guy. The noise yo hear is from the pole vent chuffing. Nick states in the video that this thing is movie about 37mm excursion one way. So Thats plenty fine for me. Xmax is 35mm and 50 Xmech. Also designing my system for 30mm at 5hz. So looking quite good so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 So Nick got the subwoofer completed and did a little video for me. Just an awesome guy. The noise yo hear is from the pole vent chuffing. Nick states in the video that this thing is movie about 37mm excursion one way. So Thats plenty fine for me. Xmax is 35mm and 50 Xmech. Also designing my system for 30mm at 5hz. So looking quite good so far. That's the way to design IMHO. Use enough amp to push the driver to a point it is still safe and comfortable with on peaks. Most of the time they'll be running at 20% or less and you don't have to worry about some sort of worst case scenario bottoming your drivers. These drivers are deep. How are you getting them in only 1.35ft each? I assume that is NET after driver displacement? That is going to require one ballsy amp to even get 30mm out of them in that kind of air space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Agreed, but Bosso's amp outa do the trick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Very nice driver. The down sides of extremely long throw drivers are that you need a bigger box, more power and you lose displacement because Sd is reduced by the mongo surround. The HST-15 looks to have 5.3 liters vs my BHT-15 at 4.95 liters and I have a shorter distance to Xmech and I'm sure a bit higher THD at the extreme end of Xmas. I'm putting a pair of them in 4.5 cubes in the Raptor. I think I would give those HSTs a bit more room to flex. Five cubes for the pair is minimum, IMO. And yes, the A14K will push a passle of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 That's the way to design IMHO. Use enough amp to push the driver to a point it is still safe and comfortable with on peaks. Most of the time they'll be running at 20% or less and you don't have to worry about some sort of worst case scenario bottoming your drivers. These drivers are deep. How are you getting them in only 1.35ft each? I assume that is NET after driver displacement? That is going to require one ballsy amp to even get 30mm out of them in that kind of air space. Yes this is net. I dont have a width yet and since I am making the cabinet I will adjust the width for what ever net I need. BUT ya these will be VERY deep drivers as you already know. I would have bought a SP12K but after seeing Bosso's amp I will just buy his instead. Less money and a known factor now that I trust. Agreed, but Bosso's amp outa do the trick I think so also. Very nice driver. The down sides of extremely long throw drivers are that you need a bigger box, more power and you lose displacement because Sd is reduced by the mongo surround. The HST-15 looks to have 5.3 liters vs my BHT-15 at 4.95 liters and I have a shorter distance to Xmech and I'm sure a bit higher THD at the extreme end of Xmas. I'm putting a pair of them in 4.5 cubes in the Raptor. I think I would give those HSTs a bit more room to flex. Five cubes for the pair is minimum, IMO. And yes, the A14K will push a passle of them. I wont make these enclosures too big but as I stated the width is not selected yet. Was looking at about 18" but going to 20 or 21" is still an option. F3 is the same in 2.7 or 4.7cuft for the pair. F20 is 10hz in 4.7cuft and F23 10hz for the 2.7cuft. But then I will be using an L/T so wouldnt it be better to keep at .7Q alignment for "some," mechanical protection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'd still go a little bigger if you have the option. Just my .02 when it comes to power consumption and with an LT, you will want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I had always designed for .7Q and then add a L/T in the past. But 4-5cuft is still do able. Doesnt get too large at 20/21" width and nets about a .57-58Q. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I like that idea if you are good with it. I personally have always thought that .7Q is a good starting point, nothing higher, but if you can get to .5Q that it can be beneficial. Does it change things on the sims? Not really, but from a power standpoint, especially with something like the hST that can take a good amount, it is a nice rule to work from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 1800watts vs 4200watts in 4.7cuft vs 2.7cuft to hit 30mm at 5hz. Only down side is that it doesnt take as much wattage to hit 30mm at 5hz but also limits excursion 10hz and up. Which then in turn lowers spl by 2db at 20hz, 3db at 30hz and 3.5db at 40hz. I also looked at making a 3.4cuft net cabinet which is right in the middle between the two cabinet sizes. It would need 3000watts to hit 30mm at 5hz and produce about 2db more from 30hz and up as expected with the wattage increase. So not fully decided what size to do yet. The larger volume is nice because of the better sensitivity down low but in the end they all look very similar below 15hz. I also hate looking at simulations. I tend to want to tweak this and that for ever and then just get frustrated. Simulations are good but they become the death of me at times. When applying an L/T to the simulations on a 2.7cuft, 3.4cuft and 5cuft all the responses are identical. All take about 1500watts to hit 30mm. And yes I know that they actually use more wattage than this but I am just saying what was on the input screen for my WinISD. I would take a screen shot but dont know how to do that on my keyboard. I have an older Mac keyboard I am using on my PC. My PC keyboard fell apart so I am stuck using this one now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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