Madaeel Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Wow. That IS impressive. Even with average sensitivity speakers that'd be quite the feat. I remember Paul said it had one of the highest noise floors he had seen in a preamp/AVR. Man that nano is badass. Probably around summer I'll pick up a nano or two. Need one for upstairs too. It's odd too cuz I hear feedback the higher I go on the MV. It's not a ground hum just a higher pitched noise. The only person who's even noticed it beside myself was Dave. You can only hear it a scene is dead quiet. One of these days I'll get that Oppo too. Out of curiosity, I know you have the 8 Daytons for subs, but what speakers are you running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted January 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Seven 'Big Mals'...SEOS12 over 2x2 Aura NS6s, set up in a 2.5-way setup. Bwaslo designed the crossover. I like them. No more vertical response anomalies like the line arrays had. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Nice. Never heard of the NS6's but I'm assuming they're mids? I wanna hear someone's SEOS. Never heard that horn and I know a lot of guys are using them. Dave and Paul both loved my JBL's but of course I'm always thinking what's next like any other man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted January 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 No new system until ATMOS/DTS-UHD and a new 4k standard get dug in. 7.1 and flat to 6-8Hz will have to do until then. I was able to find a few more Hz extension in my signal chain. Still looking for a processor that can 'hang'....I may give this guy a shot: http://denonpro.com/products/view/dn-500av#.VMxPt9LF8hs JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Man that Denon looks badass! I love that look. I never even thought about their pro gear. Actually I didn't think you could even buy it. If that thing has a nice response like the Oppo down low I'd take that too. I look forward to your results on that one. Yah I can't do ATMOS but even if I could I don't think I would in my room since the ceilings are too low. If I had 9-10ft ceiling heights I would. I need to hear it first too I guess. When it comes to 4K tho I'll be all over that as soon as it's mainstream. Then I could sit even closer to my screen. Even great 1080p looks good now on my cheap pj so I can't imagine 4K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 We'll see if the Denon holds water this weekend. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Cool. Thanks John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 No new system until ATMOS/DTS-UHD and a new 4k standard get dug in. 7.1 and flat to 6-8Hz will have to do until then. I was able to find a few more Hz extension in my signal chain. Still looking for a processor that can 'hang'....I may give this guy a shot: http://denonpro.com/products/view/dn-500av#.VMxPt9LF8hs JSS Wow! That Denon looks great. Will be interested to see what you think of it and if it outputs a clean LFE as you have been investigating. As for the new UHD standard (I'm assuming you mean a UHD Blu-ray format) we might be hearing the details about that as soon as this March! Yay! I talked with a rep from Panasonic at CES and he said they were shooting for a Fall release of hardware (UHD disc player) so I'm sure we will know something this summer if not earlier. DTS-UHD is called DTS:X, btw. They will have hardware from the usual bunch this Summer as well. That's when I'm getting a new AVR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemX Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 I really hope 4K brings all the benefits it's supposed to, would be awesome to have a step up from 1080p, which is already excellent, and it seems it's only possible to buy 4K in most sizes over here now (albeit in LED) so there are plenty of consumers already ready for the content who would very probably pay the extra for the content because bloody DVDs (which are hanging around far longer than I thought they would) are still the standard choice of many but seemingly look really not good on 4K Ultimately it doesn't really matter for me, I guess - I'm years from being able to afford the 65"+ OLED HDR 4K bells-and-whistles screen I want! Anyway, O/T, sorry lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Prelim results on the WCS with the o'scope and FR with REW with HDMI digital in: 1. -3dB point for extension on this unit is less than 2Hz (CORRECTION - -3dB point is nearer to 4-5Hz, measurement error on my part). 2. Worst Case Scenario Nearly passed. Handled 7.1 Worst case with speaker trims at -0dB with only 3%THD at -0dBMV, and <1%THD at -0.5dBMV, and <0.1%THD at -1dBMV. =====THIS WAS WRONG, SEE BELOW===== Looks like we may have a winner. I'll hook it up in the signal chain and see if any hums/noise are there. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Check that....Nope, it can't handle it. It is clean only at -11dBMV. But adjusting input level and/or speaker trims cleans it up.... JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I'm looking at this Denon now. My Onkyo shit the bed again. The hdmi board appears to have gone out again. I've already paid to fix it twice. I'm done. I have to have xlr connections. I simply will not mess with RCA cords anymore. The only unit in my system that would require RCA style cords would be the AVR! It really bugs me that it is so difficult to find units with xlr outs to the amplifiers. They keep using RCA for connection to amplifiers. Think about it, satellite and cable sets now have hdmi as do the TV's and projectors. PC's or Mac's have it too or usb, or Firewire. Cell phones and personal music players all have usb, or Bluetooth or a 1/8" head-phone type input. Most pro amps or quality Hifi amps have XLR in. The only thing most would possibly need to use a RCA input for is for connecting an auxiliary source like a CD player or something. At most you need like a tape loop, a phono input and an maybe two auxiliary RCA type inputs. Maybe a redundant RCA out for the SW out since there are a lot of small commercial units with RCA in only. It also bugs the hell out of me that the preamplifier/processors cost more than the AVR's with a built in amplifier. If they can make the AVR's that they do that go for $1000 with the amplifier built in, surely someone could make a preamplifier with good quality components, balanced outs, all of the top flight processing, etc, for $1K and still make a nice profit. The Denon doesn't have any auto EQ scheme on board. I have to believe this is part of the reason it is so affordable since Audyssey and the like have licensing fees and chip sets associated with them. I do not use these auto systems so I look at this as a plus. If you know what you are doing it makes more sense to make adjustments yourself. The only units I am aware of that fit the bill for me are these. The Denon is by far the cheapest. I'm throwing out the Onkyo and Integra models because I've given them enough money and they keep failing. Are there any others I should be looking at? Yamaha CX-A5000 Marantz AV8801 Marantz AV8802 Marantz AV7702 Onkyo PR-SC5508/09 (Integra models too) Denon DN-500-AV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I have the even older Marantz AV7005 and love it. The XLR outputs made it worth every penny. No ground hum, no voltage issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I can get the Marantz 7702 for around $1600 or the Yammie for like $2K. Or there's the Denon for $900. All I need are the xlr's, decoding of most of the common HD formats, 4K compatibility and I like being able to rack mount the gear also so that's another plus for the Denon. Atmos would be nice but being honest with myself I don't ever see myself having 11 channels... Max, As long as the Master volume is kept below -11 the Denon is fine? Or can it be cleaned up by lowering the individual channel trims to -11 so the master can still be set to 0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I can get the Marantz 7702 for around $1600 or the Yammie for like $2K. Or there's the Denon for $900. All I need are the xlr's, decoding of most of the common HD formats, 4K compatibility and I like being able to rack mount the gear also so that's another plus for the Denon. Atmos would be nice but being honest with myself I don't ever see myself having 11 channels... Max, As long as the Master volume is kept below -11 the Denon is fine? Or can it be cleaned up by lowering the individual channel trims to -11 so the master can still be set to 0? There are several 8801s in the classified on AVS right now, one selling for under $1,400. The only big difference is that the 7702 has atmos support and the 8801 doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Max, As long as the Master volume is kept below -11 the Denon is fine? Or can it be cleaned up by lowering the individual channel trims to -11 so the master can still be set to 0? Yes, If the Denon is kept at MV -11dB with the individual channels at 0dB, clean waveforms with worst case scenario. I didn't turn down the speaker trims individually to see if I could turn the MV up higher. What I did do was turn down the digital input (there is a setting for this) and at -11dB, you can be at 0dBMV and still have clean waveforms with WCS. But then you essentially have to set your amps to play 11dB higher, which could elevate the noise floor, but only if you want to hit reference. I get around the entire issue by using nanoAVR to bass-manage, and ensure that a WCS won't clip the nano. I can set individual crossover frequencies and slopes for every channel, both for the low and highpass. I intend to do that in the next few days once I get a full measurement salvo done (for all the seating positions), and after the EQ experiments with the sub clusters I mentioned in Bosso's thread. Too bad nanoAVR requires decoding to LPCM prior, it's main disadvantage. But then, there would be Dolby and DTS licensing problems (and $$$) if it could decode. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kvalsvoll Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 If this Denon is similar to the Denon-Marantz products I have here, it will be the output clipping at the max output level. This can hardly be classified as a fault, as the output level is documented and high enough to ensure full level on any subwoofer system provided the input gain is not set too low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2015 Josh, If you want me to measure with speaker trims turned down, let me know. I'll put this thing through its paces. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted February 14, 2015 Report Share Posted February 14, 2015 That'd be great since you have one and it is hard to find a decent review on it even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2015 Will do. Gimme a few days. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Ricci, Here are the results: Denon DN-500AV WCS Distortion Results: First, a comment on how the Denon does Bass Management: The incoming signal is highpassed/lowpassed to bass manage FIRST. The bass part of the signal is then ONLY controlled by the SW out. Changing individual speaker trims ONLY affects the highpassed individual speaker signal. So the only way to control headroom on this unit is to either turn down the digital input level, or the SW out level (both adjustable +/-12dB). So if you peg the individual speaker levels at +12dB, the SW is NOT affected. At all. Knowing this, I would recommend leaving all speaker trims at a certain level (matching the SW out) and control SPL using the attenuators on the front of the amp. I am not sure how other AVR/Processors handle this. On to the data: I am using a 60Hz WCS (Worst Case Scenario) sinewave (encoded at -0.1dBFS in all 7.1 channels), and measuring the XLR SW out with a 100:1 OScope probe, into Soundcard Oscilloscope software, and a Soundblaster USB soundcard, with no rolloff compensation calibration file. With all speaker trims and sw out set to 0dB, and digital input at 0dB, MVL -11dB is a clean wave: Move the MV to -10.5dB, and this results: That is around 1% THD, and I think the oscilloscope should be reading it as a flat top that is just clipped. Move the MV to -0dB, and this results: Completely clipped, and That is >30% THD Change the Sub trim to -11dB, and a MV of -0dB yields a clean wave: Leaving the SW trim at 0dB and changing the digital input yields the same result, THD around 0.18%. So just turning the SW trim (or digital input trim) down solves the problem. I find that the way this unit approaches bass management could be problematic. If a speaker trim is bumped up or down, the sw out signal should see an increase/decrease, but that is not the case, as the signal is split before individual speaker trims affect it. While ensuring headroom by only having to adjust the SW out, it could lead to problems (or not, I still have to run through this in my head) I may have to experiment with individual sweeps to bass-managed channels to see if individual channels track volume changes both to the highpassed and lowpassed portions to see if there is a difference. Overall, if 7.1, XLR out, 3D capable, 1080p processor that is quiet and can be adjusted for a WCS without clipping is what you need with no connectivity problems, it fits the bill nicely. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Thanks for the results... I have to completely disagree about the bass management though. That's exactly the way it should be done IMO. The gain of any content on the SW channel should never be affected by the other channels gain or the other way around. That's why the channels all have independent channel settings. If you are choosing to manage the bass from any of the main channels it should become a separate entity from the speakers connected to that channel and becomes SW channel content, not under control of the original channels. Why would you want its gain or other settings to be controlled by the channel that it is no longer reproduced by? Think about it, the content is separated and sent to another speaker system for reproduction, which will likely be placed somewhere else and need separate amounts of delay and gain to match it into the system. The management and redirection of the bass content should take place prior to and separate from any gain or other controls. Once separated to the SW channel it is reproduced by the SW system and should be subjected to whatever, gain, phase, EQ or whatever is on that channel. Any bass content that is not filtered to the SW channel will still be subject to the settings of the original channel, since the speakers connected to it are what will be reproducing it. If you want to maintain the bass integrity and control of the content on each channel relative to each other then run everything large without redirecting. Technically in most cases the redirection of the bass from the main channels, to one large, mono bass system, is going to maintain the overall levels of the bass mix more accurately, because it maintains the levels encoded into each channel and the LFE channel relative to each other which can then be adjusted and processed as a whole. If running everything set to large without redirected bass the bass from each non LFE channel then becomes subject to the limitations in dynamic headroom, distortion, extension, of usually much smaller less capable subwoofers. The placement and room acoustics vary for each channel individually and the level calibration can vary due to this as well. This allows a lot more variation in the bass mix and the relative reproduction of each channel and its volume level relative to the whole mix. I may have missed it but I assume that you have double checked that none of your inputs are clipping when checking the worst case scenario? What SC are you using and voltage divider setup? I only ask because with this worst case signal and everything redirected and a master volume of (0) that is going to ask the AVR to dump a ton of voltage out of the SW out. Did you verify with one of the units that it is not just the output stage clipping by running a 60Hz sine on the LFE channel and turning it up to a voltage equivalent to the unclipped worst case 7.1 ch signal? If I remember you may have already done all of this. EDIT: I see some of this was discussed earlier. Shredhed was right though. If a nearly dFS signal comes through on a main channel at "0" and the master is at "0" and this produces 1 volt from that pre-out, then summing a 7.1 worst case to the SW channel with LFE will require just over 10 volts clean. Not many are going to be able to handle that and that's disregarding what may be digital clipping somewhere additionally. Makes you wonder about the AVR's with their little built in amps having to cope with this as well. It's probably ugly. I'd like to see some more of us start looking at this with our processors. If I get a chance I will check out my Onkyo which is still kicking. I'll probably go ahead and get either the Denon or Marantz 7702 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shredhead Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 First, a comment on how the Denon does Bass Management: The incoming signal is highpassed/lowpassed to bass manage FIRST. The bass part of the signal is then ONLY controlled by the SW out. Changing individual speaker trims ONLY affects the highpassed individual speaker signal. So the only way to control headroom on this unit is to either turn down the digital input level, or the SW out level (both adjustable +/-12dB). So if you peg the individual speaker levels at +12dB, the SW is NOT affected. At all. Knowing this, I would recommend leaving all speaker trims at a certain level (matching the SW out) and control SPL using the attenuators on the front of the amp. I am not sure how other AVR/Processors handle this. The OPPO is like this too. Edge of Tomorrow has bass in the center center channel that is re-directed when speakers are set to small. If you look at the waveform in SL here you can see it gets larger when center is set to small. Then when you adjust the center trim, it does not affect the SW out's level at all. If you have a cheap $5 meter you can measure RMS voltage on it's SW out while playing that sine wave at your safe -10dB setting to see what your equipment can expect downstream. Might be worth double checking a 1k sine on one of the main channels to see where trim chops the tops and checking that voltage if you think that might be useful to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted February 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I see what you mean, it probably does the Bass management the proper way. The Denon just begins to clip a 0dBFS signal into the LFE channel at 0dBMV. That's why you have to reduce the SW out trim by -11dB to keep a clean signal when you add in all the LCRS in the WCS track. I did not measure voltage out, I have no real way to do that until I build a calibrator for the OScope. I verify the WCS track is not clipping out of the BluRay player by running it through nanoAVR and looking at its meters, and by looking at the waveform at a lower dBMV. Both are clean. NanoAVR is NOT in the chain when I measure. The Denon appears to be a well-designed unit. My voltage divider is 100:1 attenuation, with diode protection to keep my soundcard from frying. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hmm. This could be a viable option to the Oppo for now. It's not like the 105 can do 9.1 or 4K anyway. Would just have to turn the gain up a little on the amp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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