BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[Bossobass Dave]

Dave, are you still building and selling the raptors or blackbirds?

 

Quoted from post #18 in this thread: 

 

 

And, yes, you can have one. That was the who;e point of selling one to Adam.

 

I promised some folks that I would do a special limited run of Raptor System 2 and System 3 this year. I air freighted the final driver version for Adam's system so that he could have it up and running now that his HT is finally done. The rest of the drivers are in production and the rest of the systems are finished and waiting for the drivers to load them and test.

 

I've kept a list of those who were interested from the US and various other countries and will ping them. If anyone else is interested, they will be sold on a first-come, first-served basis at special pricing. Just go to www.bossobass.com and click the contact tab in the navigation bar and e-mail me for the details. Please, if you are outside the US, let me know what country/city they need to be shipped to for an accurate estimate of shipping costs, VAT, duties, etc.

 

 

 

[lukeamdman]

Interesting.

 

On the site you posted the link to, they have a YT vid and their bar graph vertical scale is 100-160dB:

 

 

Ah ha!  I found a setting for "Minimum Level".  I could choose 120, 130, or none.  Now that it's set to "none", that vertical scale can go as low at 80.  

[Jeff L]

Just checking, I sent an email yesterday and it was kicked back, I sent it again and it seemed to take. If you didn't receive it let me know. Look forward to hearing from you.

 

Regards Jeff

[vxds11]

Sent you a pm Dave. Just checking to see if it's O.K.

[Bossobass Dave]

Just checking, I sent an email yesterday and it was kicked back, I sent it again and it seemed to take. If you didn't receive it let me know. Look forward to hearing from you.

 

Regards Jeff

 

Yes, my server was haywire last week. I believe I have it all sorted out and I'm going through the e-mails today and tomorrow.

 

Look for the response and LMK if you don't get by end of day tomorrow.

[Bossobass Dave]

Sent you a pm Dave. Just checking to see if it's O.K.

 

I got it.

 

Looks absotively fabulousity. Start a build thread with lots of pics and don't forget to properly signal shape & power that beast.

[Bossobass Dave]

Ah ha!  I found a setting for "Minimum Level".  I could choose 120, 130, or none.  Now that it's set to "none", that vertical scale can go as low at 80.  

 

Awesome. I appreciate the dialog. I was pretty lost at first view of the vid.

[Madaeel]

I had the (mis)fortune of being 100ft from a Blackhawk chopper the other day as it was spinning up and taking off from a movie set.  While it was loud, the thing that was shocking was the absolute pounding it gave to the ground and everyone around. 

 

Those 6-7Hz frequencies in BHD F'ing Irene, and the really long one in Lone Survivor, are completely legit, and it's terribly important for me to be able to hit them in my HT, but you'd pop the brown note if you reproduced them at the levels at home that they're reproduced in real life.  The same goes for explosions, especially if anyone's ever viewed in person the sustained ones produced by shuttle/rocket launches. 

 

When played back on a capable sealed system matched to its room, there's a sense of realism imparted via unfiltered movie mixes which you simply cannot achieve with ported systems (unless you go ultra huge 500 cubes ported for 5.4Hz tuning or whatever MKTheater is doing these days ).  That's the use case where sealed totally makes sense, and I'm glad you helped me see the light a few years ago, Dave.  This is also why we bitch and moan so much about filtered mixes - they cut out the things that are present in real life, or would be if what was on screen was real - and it impacts the immersion we get from a HT experience.

 

Similarly, I can appreciate budgets, lack of DIY skills/tools/time, or a desire to mostly listen to music which would lead folks ported.  I really don't care what type of systems people use, as long as they enjoy the presentation.

 

P.S.  Dave, get back to me about amp options when you can.  I now have income.

Agreed and I wish I had known some of this before I spent money on some of the crap subs I had over the years.

 

I'm jealous of you getting to experience that ULF from the Copter'. I would love to hear that with the proper hearing protection of course.

[Bossobass Dave]

Sent you a pm Dave. Just checking to see if it's O.K.

 

 

BTW, I saw where Rob said the A14K is a clone "with a few minor tweaks". I can't let that one go.

 

[Bossobass Dave]

The conversation about the horn system is exactly what my rant was about. Not singling you out, Luke... your system is commendable and you've always been a great asset to the DIY community. It's just what I've been saying for a long, long time.

 

To put it into perspective, I scaled your FR to Adam's, both at the seats. It looks exactly on the graph as I've explained it in my rant post:

 

 

You pay the price of enclosure size and loss of 1/2 the SW BW for a system that acoustically shapes the signal very efficiently over 2 octaves.

 

As James said, engage the 18 Hz HPF curve on the SEQSS and Adam's system can top 130dB at the seats, but why he would want to do that honestly escapes me.

[vxds11]

Yeah, I just feel a little reserved about getting a cloner, and believe the A14K would be a safer bet all around...

[lukeamdman]

The conversation about the horn system is exactly what my rant was about. Not singling you out, Luke... your system is commendable and you've always been a great asset to the DIY community. It's just what I've been saying for a long, long time.

 

To put it into perspective, I scaled your FR to Adam's, both at the seats. It looks exactly on the graph as I've explained it in my rant post:

 

 

You pay the price of enclosure size and loss of 1/2 the SW BW for a system that acoustically shapes the signal very efficiently over 2 octaves.

 

As James said, engage the 18 Hz HPF curve on the SEQSS and Adam's system can top 130dB at the seats, but why he would want to do that honestly escapes me.

 

For me, the room being in a basement on a concrete slab changes everything.  I used to have four 5400's in sealed cabinets, and even though my room had something like a 14db drop from 14hz to 13hz, I could still hit 110db+ at 10hz.  

 

The problem is that anything 15hz and under just didn't do anything.  Nothing audible, nothing tactile, just a whole lot of nothing.  Some minor rattling here and there from the house, but really that's about it.  

 

Even with my system now, during that EOT scene where I'm at 130db at 15hz, it really doesn't do much.  The 45hz and 75hz tones that play along with it completely drown it out.  I didn't even notice it until I turned the Othorns off!  

 

I guarantee you, that if my HT was on a wood floor and not in a basement on concrete, I'd have 16 or even 32 sealed 18's by now.  

 

So Dave, if 15hz and under did literally nothing in terms of anything your senses could perceive, no matter how loud it was, would you really care about it?  

[Madaeel]

I wouldn't get a clone man. If you're going to all that work to make these subs look that good, btw looks awesome so far, and put this much thought and effort into your build, get something to power them that you know will last. *If* something goes wrong Dave won't respond with a picture with a part circled in red crayon YOU have to replace. For $800 more you get an assured flat response from the amp, 2ohm stability, a lot more in the reserves for peaks, and the aesthetics are in-room worthy.

 

I thought of getting a clone and I realize there's plenty of people who have them with no problems so far, but it's still a gamble no matter how you look at it. If you needed multiples I can see that adding up quick but this amp will power multiple drivers with no problems. Except for maybe some of the higher excursion 18's and larger drivers this amp will power eight of any driver I can think of. Dave can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

 

You get plenty more for the extra money and of course peace of mind. Dave does nothing half-assed and that's why it took him so long to find the right amp to use. You'll know where the money went when you fire it up.

[Bossobass Dave]

 

So Dave, if 15hz and under did literally nothing in terms of anything your senses could perceive, no matter how loud it was, would you really care about it?  

 

I've been asked and told this many, many times over the years in many different wordings from different angles that all mean the same thing.

 

My answer is that it is virtually an impossibility that it will do nothing to my senses.

 

After all of the comments regarding basement HTs on concrete slabs, I was beginning to buy it based on the weight of the comments. When Paul and I went to Brandon's GTG (an almost completely underground basement on a concrete slab) and set up speclab so that you could see what your senses were perceiving in real time as the graph scrolled, there occurred an interesting phenomenon:

 

Every time a an effect played with strong <15 Hz content, the GTG attendees ran to the front of the room to crane their necks to see the computer monitor, asking "Whoa, that felt low... what frequency was that?".

 

When we set up Adam's system, a basement HT with double sheetrock, green glue, 400# sealed doors on a concrete slab, I wondered again if Adam would just shrug and say that <20 Hz is nothing. He's already commented on that and he calls me every time he plays another movie through the system for the first time to relate the experience.

 

Put it this way: if I was in such a listening space and full bandwidth was the claim and the soundtrack clips we're used to were played and I felt zero difference, I would park my ass in that room with gear to examine why that was the case because it would be the exception to the rule.

[Bossobass Dave]

Yeah, I just feel a little reserved about getting a cloner, and believe the A14K would be a safer bet all around...

 Meh... I've bought a dozen of them from several sales agents like "Johnson" Tang. I gave one to Adam for his SIs. One of them blew a gasket, one of them smoked out and one of them needed a minor repair, which I affected and it still works.

 

They're good amps for the dough but they all have differences in parts origin because they're built with off brand and/or discontinued components bought in huge quantity by the actual manufacturers.

 

All of that aside, the A14K is just a whole nuther animal.

 

For example, I have a K12000, badged FP9000. I set up and calibrated it to 1/2 of a Raptor system 3 (4x15") and I set a FP14000 clone exactly the same on the other 1/2 of the Raptor system 3. Playing heavy hitters, the K12000 outperformed the FP14000. When I replaced the FP14000 with the A14K, it bested the K12000 with ease. I pushed the input until the K12000 was lighting the VPL and occasional clip lights and the A14K was doing the backstroke.

 

As I said earlier in this thread, Paul measured it at 33.1 amps and 270 volts bridged into a 3.4 ohm nominal load peaks. There's no clone that can do that and live to do it again.

[lukeamdman]

I've been asked and told this many, many times over the years in many different wordings from different angles that all mean the same thing.

 

My answer is that it is virtually an impossibility that it will do nothing to my senses.

 

After all of the comments regarding basement HTs on concrete slabs, I was beginning to buy it based on the weight of the comments. When Paul and I went to Brandon's GTG (an almost completely underground basement on a concrete slab) and set up speclab so that you could see what your senses were perceiving in real time as the graph scrolled, there occurred an interesting phenomenon:

 

Every time a an effect played with strong <15 Hz content, the GTG attendees ran to the front of the room to crane their necks to see the computer monitor, asking "Whoa, that felt low... what frequency was that?".

 

When we set up Adam's system, a basement HT with double sheetrock, green glue, 400# sealed doors on a concrete slab, I wondered again if Adam would just shrug and say that <20 Hz is nothing. He's already commented on that and he calls me every time he plays another movie through the system for the first time to relate the experience.

 

Put it this way: if I was in such a listening space and full bandwidth was the claim and the soundtrack clips we're used to were played and I felt zero difference, I would park my ass in that room with gear to examine why that was the case because it would be the exception to the rule.

 

I guess we both just sound like spinning records to each other, lol.  

 

I've heard much of the same from you single digit obsessed people, but when I look back at my sealed system, the only positive thing was getting to watch the cones move with all that low content I couldn't hear/feel.  

 

Maybe it was a setup issue, or maybe my old room just plain sucked for ULF content.  Who knows, and it's not worth speculating at this point, but who knows what my system will change into in the future.  

 

I do know this, that the bass head in me won't settle for anything less than 140db levels from ~15hz and up, and trying to get that from a sealed system is a tall order...a really tall order.   

[Madaeel]

Hey Luke I'm curious you say even at 130db at 15hz you feel nothing in you room. I understand the concrete floor not moving under you but I guess where I'm confused is that you are implying your couch, or whatever you're sitting on, isn't moving either correct? I only ask cuz obviously I know you're not the only one to go ported to feel the bass more and I'm starting to wonder why that is. Rob and others have said nothing below 10hz does anything for them either. I just am not sure how frequencies above 15hz are giving you the tactile sensation while anything below isn't? Especially if you're hitting 130db. That would make my entire house crumble.

 

My room isn't anything special. If I'm standing in the room I don't feel the bass like I do on my first floor which is suspended. When I sit down on the couch though it feels like I have shakers on the couch. Whether or not some of that is transferred from the floor or not idk. I'm guessing not much. However, the waves of bass from the subs literally move the couch. When we were playing '9' over and over Paul was standing behind the couch and it vibrated so hard it scared him. It was f'n hilarious haha.

 

I'm just really curious why others are not getting the same effect from their couches, chairs, etc? I mean even in a room with a suspended floor you get the shake from both the floor vibrating and the bass waves going through the room and furniture.

 

Maybe I have a cheap ass couch.

 

I would love to hear your system in your room and mine. Well as long as I didn't have to help move them.

[Madaeel]

Btw it"ll be interesting to hear/feel a Raptor system 3 on a suspended floor. I never heard a system capable of single digits on one and Dave has said it's pretty awesome. I'm headed to his place this weekend to pick up Jazzy's sub and spend some time with him and his family. Should be a great time. Maybe Paul can resurrect my eD amp while I'm there.

[maxmercy]

I guess we both just sound like spinning records to each other, lol.  

 

I've heard much of the same from you single digit obsessed people, but when I look back at my sealed system, the only positive thing was getting to watch the cones move with all that low content I couldn't hear/feel.  

 

Maybe it was a setup issue, or maybe my old room just plain sucked for ULF content.  Who knows, and it's not worth speculating at this point, but who knows what my system will change into in the future.  

 

I do know this, that the bass head in me won't settle for anything less than 140db levels from ~15hz and up, and trying to get that from a sealed system is a tall order...a really tall order.   

 

There are some folks that are simply more sensitive to <10Hz.  I have a very paltry system compared to most of the infrasonic systems out there (Eight RefHF 15" Drivers), and I can easily tell when 5Hz tonebursts are being played above around 108dB (I am on a slab in a basement, with three 1/2 walls of concrete as well).  Nothing moves, but I can feel the room pressurize.  Not as much with 3Hz and 1.5Hz tonebursts, but I run into signal chain rolloff at that point.  The cones move at 1.5Hz, but no real sensation is evident.  At 3Hz there is sensation, a 'feeling', but no movement of couch, walls, etc.  At 5Hz, definitely felt, eerie feeling, just a little tactile sensation (4 of the drivers fire into the back of the MLP).  8Hz is moving things about, and definitively 'there'.  10Hz is much the same, just louder, with more wall and furniture movement.  10-15Hz is violent, much more tactile.  Above 15Hz you are reaching resonances of some of my walls, and you can hear things creak, and you are reaching the resonances of the couch at 16Hz.  The perceived volume climbs immensely.

 

I have never pushed beyond 118dB on any of these tonebursts, as I do not necessarily want to know when the RefHFs have hit their limits and parts clang.  That puts me at around -10dBRef capable for the worst possible ULF scenario encoded on a disc in 7.1, or around -6dBRef to -5dBRef capable for nearly all films, but some films are starting to push the envelope of 7.1's capabilities.  I need to make a wedge micrometer to see how much excursion I am really seeing, as it looks to be impressive for the Dayton's rated excursion capabilities.

 

EoT's 10Hz intro was only encoded Center and LFE, making for a ~120dB sustained tone if played back at reference.  If the rest of the channels were to be included, it would have topped out at 128dB.

 

JSS

[laugsbach]

Btw it"ll be interesting to hear/feel a Raptor system 3 on a suspended floor. I never heard a system capable of single digits on one and Dave has said it's pretty awesome. I'm headed to his place this weekend to pick up Jazzy's sub and spend some time with him and his family. Should be a great time. Maybe Paul can resurrect my eD amp while I'm there.

 

You are very lucky Adam! The demo at Dave's house is still the most impressive demo I have ever had of a sub system...

 

I hope he plays the Star Trek (2009) demo scene for you with and without the HPF engaged...I felt weightless sitting in the MLP.

[vxds11]

They're good amps for the dough but they all have differences in parts origin because they're built with off brand and/or discontinued components bought in huge quantity by the actual manufacturers.

 

This is that one caveat that can't be ignored. Once you gain knowledge of these practices, it's hard to put trust in a component. Kinda reminds me of the Onkyo receiver HDMI issues..

[Bossobass Dave]

Here's the deal on sealed vs other:

 

I get full bandwidth at reference level with sealed and the entire system is 18 cubes in less than 6 square feet of floor space. That's not happening with any other alignment. End of story.

 

Why would I scrap that system and increase the floor space requirement to 3 times what it is so that I could have the same performance without the low end? That's a silly question to me and that's why I've always responded to it with a bit of disdain.

 

I never see 130dB peaks with all of the sats on at reference level, let alone subs only. Running the subs +10-15dB hot makes the presentation sound muddy and saps some of the realism of a well done soundtrack and makes music sound like a 3 year old mixed it. What it equates to when employing a resonant system or affecting a HPF on the signal chain for ridiculous playback levels is boosting the signal by +10-15dB across a 2 octave band, whether ir be from 15 Hz to 60 Hz or 20 Hz to 80 Hz. It sounds like ass to me. At the very least, it's simply a gross distortion of the content.

 

Pictures do not have to fall off the wall for me to be happy with high fidelity. I don't hear so well above 10k Hz any more, but I'll be damned if I would scrap my OW-3 tweeters for a really loud horn that rolls off at 9k Hz.

 

I would also like to point out that testing sensitivity to ULF by playing steady state sine tones is a bad experiment. It's the pulses and transients that ULF give a sense of realism to and those are the scenes that should be compared: "with" and "without".

[lukeamdman]

Here's the deal on sealed vs other:

 

I get full bandwidth at reference level with sealed and the entire system is 18 cubes in less than 6 square feet of floor space. That's not happening with any other alignment. End of story.

 

Why would I scrap that system and increase the floor space requirement to 3 times what it is so that I could have the same performance without the low end? That's a silly question to me and that's why I've always responded to it with a bit of disdain.

 

I never see 130dB peaks with all of the sats on at reference level, let alone subs only. Running the subs +10-15dB hot makes the presentation sound muddy and saps some of the realism of a well done soundtrack and makes music sound like a 3 year old mixed it. What it equates to when employing a resonant system or affecting a HPF on the signal chain for ridiculous playback levels is boosting the signal by +10-15dB across a 2 octave band, whether ir be from 15 Hz to 60 Hz or 20 Hz to 80 Hz. It sounds like ass to me. At the very least, it's simply a gross distortion of the content.

 

Pictures do not have to fall off the wall for me to be happy with high fidelity. I don't hear so well above 10k Hz any more, but I'll be damned if I would scrap my OW-3 tweeters for a really loud horn that rolls off at 9k Hz.

 

I would also like to point out that testing sensitivity to ULF by playing steady state sine tones is a bad experiment. It's the pulses and transients that ULF give a sense of realism to and those are the scenes that should be compared: "with" and "without".

 

If that's what you want and like I have no issue with it at all.  Sound is like food, it's 100% subjective and you can't tell people what tastes good or what they should like.  I simply have a different preference.

 

This "reference" of 115db peaks or whatever that people go crazy about literally makes me yawn.  115db at 60hz and less is a snooze fest that leaves me bored to tears.

 

I'm a crazy bass head and I fully admit it, and 1 or 2 times a month, and for very brief periods of time, I crank the system to near 140db.  Yes it makes my eye balls giggle and distorts my vision.  Yes it's actually hard to breathe and the bass hits are almost painful.  Yes I get a headache almost every time.  Yes I have to clean up whatever mess it makes from things falling all over the place upstairs.  

 

If that's what floats my boat, why should/would I change it?

 

This is a hobby, and like most hobbies that men have, it can get extreme.  If you're telling me all those 15's you have and 14kw of power isn't extreme, then you need your head checked.  I don't think we're all that different 

[Bossobass Dave]

This is that one caveat that can't be ignored. Once you gain knowledge of these practices, it's hard to put trust in a component. Kinda reminds me of the Onkyo receiver HDMI issues..

 

Yes. But, my point is that I've taken that risk a dozen times with just the so-called 'clones'. A dozen others from Stewart, Crown, QSC, American Audio, Marathon... all the way back 45 years to Phase Linear 400 and 700B.

 

One amplifier I have never owned is the Behringer stuff. It's a QSC RMX series clone with a cheesed out power supply. It could never handle full bandwidth transients at anywhere near reference level. Totally unsuited to HT use. Point being that hundreds of them were bought by the DIY community to power HT subs. It was the darling of DIYers for sub power because 'everyone' said it was.

 

I sell systems and the A14K is part of those systems. I offer them as a stand alone for those who want to build their own system. I really don't care much what sub anyone wants to buy or build for whatever reason.

[Bossobass Dave]

Btw it"ll be interesting to hear/feel a Raptor system 3 on a suspended floor. I never heard a system capable of single digits on one and Dave has said it's pretty awesome. I'm headed to his place this weekend to pick up Jazzy's sub and spend some time with him and his family. Should be a great time. Maybe Paul can resurrect my eD amp while I'm there.

 

We can't wait to see ya. It will be a great time.

 

You are very lucky Adam! The demo at Dave's house is still the most impressive demo I have ever had of a sub system...

 

I hope he plays the Star Trek (2009) demo scene for you with and without the HPF engaged...I felt weightless sitting in the MLP.

 

Yep. I'll have the all-new SEQSS in line, the A14K and a full Raptor System #3 up and running and final-calibrated. I will start with the ST scene and let Adam do the commentary.

 

BTW, the drivers are on the water.