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BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3


Madaeel

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My WIFE knew something was wrong when I had the 18HPF engaged. If someone who know's nothing about subs and frequencies they can play at notices a difference... then you didn't hear/feel a system capable of 3hz. Period.

 

She doesn't have a sister by chance, does she?  :)

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I would bet the LMSR had bad glue application. I've had a few issues with it on both the surrounds and the spiders on TC drivers. I really like those drivers but they could use better QC. They are really linear. You'll crack the backplate and oil can the cone. Done that too. That's the failure mode on those which is not my favorite. Should be at about 37mm in so if something happened before then it is likely a defect. Not really any excuse for that on a $450 driver.

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I would bet the LMSR had bad glue application. I've had a few issues with it on both the surrounds and the spiders on TC drivers. I really like those drivers but they could use better QC. They are really linear. You'll crack the backplate and oil can the cone. Done that too. That's the failure mode on those which is not my favorite. Should be at about 37mm in so if something happened before then it is likely a defect. Not really any excuse for that on a $450 driver.

 

We suspected it was a glue problem, but it's hard to tell after the fact without tearing the sub apart. I just sent it back.

 

It def was not anywhere near 37 mm, in or out. I agree that the driver shouldn't be suspect mechanically for that kind of loot. It was just the closest driver in published specs to the BHT-15 (virtually the same, as a matter of fact) and I wanted to do a comparison battery of tests. It boasts a 10" pair of spiders which is quite larger than the 7-1/2" spiders on the BHT-15, so I know it should be capable of 2" P2P throw and that's why I thought it had to be a defective assembly problem.

 

As I said, the amount of throw should be doable, it's the "with absolute linearity" part I'm dubious about. And, if it is indeed absolutely linear at 2", does that translate with program through SpecLab and listening subjectively?

 

It says 2" peak to peak is maximum linear Xmax, so that was the target excursion for this part of the test. I believe it was actually just a hair under 2" when it started clanking.

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Here's the digits vs mic'd version in animated gif. One is the standard A-B comparison, the other is a slow transition from mic'd to digital copy. As you can gather the mic'd version is +10dB hot. We could have used the offset feature in SL to better normalize the 2 graphs (because it's easier to look for non linearity that way) but that's just one of the dozen things we didn't have the time to do.

 

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Good stuff, fellas.  I do have one minor request, though!

 

When making the gifs, if you could label each measurement in the animation, that would be super helpful.  I say this because, sometimes I think I know which is which, but then when it's pointed out which is which, I had them reversed.  I'm really trying to get a clearer picture of it's accuracy - where the system is under-representing and over-representing the bass.  And, comparing things much higher in the range, we can get a very good idea of how much hotter the mic'd version is than the digital.

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@Rowan

Thanks again for the kind words. I can't stop the ULF, nothing can that I know of, but eveything else you can't hear at all and the bass shakes the upstairs just slightly. If you can do a room-within-a-room and maybe 3 layers of drywall I'm sure even the ULF would be less of a nuisance though.

 

As far as the Oppo goes only if you used it as your pre/pro would you possibly gain output down low. Dave did a loopback on his so he knows the roll-off but I'm not sure if they use the same components. You'd imagine they would but until someone does one, or you do one yourself, you can't say for sure.

 

I've spent the last several days using it as a pre/pro. Honestly, I'm not sure; mostly because I've got no way to do a semi proper EQ. That being said, my NAD sounds so much nicer then the Denon with my KLF20's, 10's and C7. I'm using the Denon for my SSR/L. I'm running the sub directly from the Oppo, and I did have to lower the volume on my sub because it was louder. I've got a 24" THT running off a BASH 300 in a 4500 cubic foot finished basement. I've watched most of Oblivion on it and I've got to say it sounds pretty good, but would be better with EQ. I'll see how Cap America TWS goes tonight.

 

Yeah, right now I don't really get ULF....THT good for a lot of things, but ULF isn't one of them. Just don't want to drop a lot of money into subs and amps. Planning on building THT #2 next spring. Maybe do some transducers for the ULF? Maybe one day I can order a Raptor, but that's a while off.

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I've spent the last several days using it as a pre/pro. Honestly, I'm not sure; mostly because I've got no way to do a semi proper EQ. That being said, my NAD sounds so much nicer then the Denon with my KLF20's, 10's and C7. I'm using the Denon for my SSR/L. I'm running the sub directly from the Oppo, and I did have to lower the volume on my sub because it was louder.

 

Just thought I'd throw out that if you are running the OPPO 105 with no AVR, reference level on that thing's volume is 91.  It goes up to 100 and it isn't the standard dB increments, it's more like a cable box's volume or something like that.  For a hot movie like WOTW or 9 you don't want to go past that level or you will clip the sub out (figuring 0dB trim on the sub). 

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Just thought I'd throw out that if you are running the OPPO 105 with no AVR, reference level on that thing's volume is 91.  It goes up to 100 and it isn't the standard dB increments, it's more like a cable box's volume or something like that.  For a hot movie like WOTW or 9 you don't want to go past that level or you will clip the sub out (figuring 0dB trim on the sub). 

 

Thanks for the heads up!

 

I'm running the 103, don't know if that makes a difference. I leveled the sub at 0 and 75db by using the volume adjustment on the sub amp. After I got that set (it's not even above the first hash mark on the volume knob), I raised it +5 through the 103. Honestly, I can run is at 90 and it doesn't seem as loud as it did just through my Denon. I've got to do more experimenting. I ran my PS4 through the HDMI in on the back of the Oppo, but the PS4 doesn't seem to like that. Nothing is smooth, it seems like it's skipping - if that makes sense.

 

Sorry Madaeel, didn't mean to thread jack.

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No problem man.

 

THT's are amazing for the price man. Dave always says though instead of changing subs up until you finally decide to get a system capable of full BW, just get one from the beginning and save yourself money and the time consuming process. Good advice too. Pretty much what I did in the basement but not everyone can do that. What you *can* do though is buy a couple SI drivers, or whatever you like, and slowly build it up till you have enough displacement and power. Then just make sure your signal chain has as little roll-off as possible and you should be able to achieve full BW or damn close to it. Dave shared the formula with everyone so everyone could enjoy what he does not just people who buy his systems.

 

If I I didn't get his Raptors I would've gone with multiple SI's and one of his amps. Some eq and an Oppo would've got me close. Just not even close to being as pretty. :D

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98dae1edeb8d7e280fdf5f9dbdbe84e7.gif

 

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Sorry, Abraham. I've been far quicker to post, post much less frequently and spend less time on each post these days compared to years past.

 

As you can see, we (I mean Paul) went back and redid a couple of digits versions of some of the scenes and normalized the levels to the mic'd versions we did at Adam's HT.

 

I then devised a way to fade them in from the digits version to the mic'd version at 13% increments. This helps see differences, if any (and there are pretty much always differences due to frequency response non-linearity in the mic'd versions) much easier.

 

There are 2 main differences and you can see them quite easily in the animations. As mentioned above, the FR non-linearity, which is always the chief problem at the seats, and the roll off at the bottom can be seen actually rolling off from the digital version.

 

You can watch the response roll off to still present at 3 Hz and flat to 5 Hz. I'll prob never get over how significant this test result is. It allows one to throw down the gauntlet against bullshit and, more importantly, it goes so much farther to explaining listener's subjective evaluations and preferences than any other metric ever.

 

Another significant result is that harmonic distortion is all but extinct in these in-room graphs.

 

Hope the pic/description helps you to keep track of what scene is from where, etc. :)

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That's awesome Dave. Now that I think about it I don't think we were sitting down at the LP at any point during those scenes. Did we?? I'm a little scared to run those scenes again. I'll prolly just watch the whole movie. Those scenes were just scary in my room. Damn I love Speclab.

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That's awesome Dave. Now that I think about it I don't think we were sitting down at the LP at any point during those scenes. Did we?? I'm a little scared to run those scenes again. I'll prolly just watch the whole movie. Those scenes were just scary in my room. Damn I love Speclab.

 

No, we were all over the room when scenes were being played.  :lol:  Paul had to man the rig and measure/watch the SEQSS and amp indicator lights, so he was back and forth with that in the back right corner and you and I were sitting, standing, kneeling at the drivers to watch them.

 

Remember we measured the various seating positions and there was a variation in room gain centered at 20 Hz? Since the mic was being shuffled from the main seat to other slightly different positions, there is a more or less pronounced dip from 20-43 Hz, as Abraham caught from watching the speclab animations.

 

And, I remember we laughed a lot. But, I remember the "9" scenes in chapter 18 at +10dB hot. I was at the front right corner stack watching the drivers and I fell back a bit and said "Whoa! That's about as far as I'd push this system in this room if I were you!" That's when Paul moved back away from the couch and said "%$%#@$#@!!" :o:blink::lol:

 

It's fun stuff, but to me it's just amazing how the whole thing works at that level of playback with that content with room gain and a few guys looking like they just got zapped with a cattle prod. No mater how many times I see the results, it's still like the first time.

 

My favorite of the whole demo scenes part of the trip was watching you whip your head to the side to watch the speclab graph scroll every time a ULF hit went through the room. I thought we might have to call 911 for whiplash. :D I wish I had an animated gif of that.

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Hahaha yah that's a pretty accurate recollection. It's funny I didn't remember we weren't in the LP when those scenes hit and we were still scared as s*** when they did! Prolly why I thought we were. Poor Paul had to endure that bass all alone. :P

 

It was just amazing to see what you always talk about when you and the wife are watching a movie and right away you know it's ULF. Pretty cool to look over and see what your system is doing and capable of. I was trying to watch the damn movie but I knew there were pretty colors on that screen. How could I not look?? I'm definitely gonna have to Speclab after I'm done watching a movie.

 

Speaking of which I ordered the UMIK-1, the UMM-6 has a high noise floor, and grabbing the laptop tomorrow so hopefully within a week or two I can get up to speed on Speclab and REW. I'll have to run Speclab watching WotW. :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Bwahahahahaha :P:D:lol::o

 

Adam pinged me last night with no comments, just a pic:

 

cf724b8312ff206c4da1f43d680a8787.jpg

 

This is exactly what happens when you go full bandwidth! ;)

 

BR purchases spike through the roof and the enjoyment factor expands exponentially.

 

But, remember... that ULF stuff is unintended noise, you can't hear it, it adds nothing to the experience, you need a nuclear power plant for juice, it costs a ton of money, <20 Hz has to be 145dB minimum to suit the equal loudness curves, etc.

 

So, ignore Adam's subjective input from here on because he's just delusional. :blink: :blink: :blink:

 

BTW, I have a new metric for subwoofer value. $/L. Adam's Special Edition Raptor System 3 base price is $169/L. That's the best displacement value on earth, no wait... in the galaxy, er... universe. That's it, in the universe. B)

 

Can y'all tell I'm havin' a blast (and, a few beers) this afternoon?

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Is that $169/L with amp and bossobassis?  Then YES, it is a terrific value.  I built my sub system for ~$200/L including amps/minidsp.  I displace around 12L, or around 200cuft of theater / liter of subwoofer displacement.  Having <16Hz is a new experience.  I am flat to 8 now, but my signal chain limits the response below, and I need to do some investigating to solve a clipping problem in the bass management section of my pre/pro.

 

But a much nicer FR curve now (distortion shown in grey):

 

first%2Breal%2Bgood%2Bsweep.png

 

Old one (with two THTs boosted below tune to get as much extension as possible, but limited to -7dBRef playback)

 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=236405&stc=1&d=1328560311

 

 

JSS

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Awesome stuff. We need details. :)

 

Lots of added content between the 2 presentations. Let us know what the differences, if any, are at the seat.

 

 

5f54cc9a21c5a7058307c05fe0fdbe88.gif

 

Yes, that's the whole system and, yes, it really is the best $/L commercially available subwoofer value on the planet. The only way to beat that is to build a multi-driver system yourself. But that, of course, doesn't consider the rest of the performance parameters like in-room bandwidth and power headroom.

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Terrific comparison graphic!

 

That truly is a value.  How many liters displacement per unit?  

 

But, I have to be honest.  I have made the following LF HT upgrades over time:

 

0. TV speakers only

1. No subwoofer, around -30dBRef, but Dolby ProLogic

2. 40Hz at -25dBRef to -30dBRef, 1st sub, single 12" sealed, 5.1

3. 30Hz at -15dBRef to -20dBRef, 1st high sensitivity sub, horn loaded, tuned to 30Hz, 5.1

4. 16Hz at -10dBRef to -7dBRef, dual 15" horn loaded subs tuned to 22Hz, boosted to be flat to 16Hz with low distortion, 5.1.

5. 8Hz at -10dBRef to ??? Multiple sealed subs (I have yet to see the new system's full capabilities)...

 

The biggest leap was 3 to 4 (so far), as far as hearing is concerned.  VERY close behind is 4 to 5, where 'feeling' takes over.  Keep in mind, I have only had the new system for 2 weeks, and very few experiences for direct comparison.  I have so many clips I need to demo that it may be 4 to 5 wins, simply because you don't hear, you experience once you reach a certain SPL and extension, and with significant tactile force to literally induce fight or flight reactions in you.  

 

I was doing tests with sinewaves at 110dB at 10Hz with <5%THD.  Then I tried tonebursts at 10Hz at 115dB.  It is crazy. I must be getting close to the driver's limits (Eight Dayton Ref HF 15" drivers), but it was literally MOVING stuff (including me).  I am on a concrete slab, too.  I can only imagine what those on a suspended floor feel at the floor's resonance freqs.  No way I can do theater Reference level with all channels kicking at <15Hz (128dB peak).  Something in the house's framing or drywall will give.  I know I can have more below 8Hz, as the drivers do not meet the excursion at 8-10Hz when playing below 8....now I need to look at the signal chain to see where I can get a little more extension...my realistic goal with the current system is 7dB below theater reference as low as I can go.  I hope to get a few more dBs below 8Hz.

 

JSS

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That's awesome Max! I forgot what you were going with. Those drivers are better than the Ultimax IIRC. More Xmax and better parts. I know the best way to get more db below 8hz is to get an Oppo but the damn thing only has two HDMI inputs. It's killing me though thinking I could get another 6db at 3Hz...

 

I can easily tell when the bass goes to single digits. Last night I watched The Wolverine and Thor 2. Huge difference between the soundtracks. Thor has a lot more bass scenes in general like the first one and they're mostly from 15-30hz. There were a couple scenes in The Wolverine though where your body and my couch just shudder. Ethan looked at me and said "that was awesome". I don't get that pressure some people talk about down low. Its actually kinda creepy because you hear absolutely nothing but just feel the whole couch and yourself get shook like a rag doll. I would like to feel this on a suspended floor too but my room already sounds dead quiet so I'm not sure I'd like the tradeoff.

 

I'm heading to BB now to get a laptop to get REW and Speclab up and running. WotW, Star Trek, and TIH are on their way from amazon. :D

 

Ya know Dave when you think it's only $169/L that's pretty damn amazing. Maybe I should've gotten a "couple" more liters.  :wacko:

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Wait...  what??

 

That is ridiculously cheap.

 

I've just worked out my DIY (well, Commission It Yourself ;)) build costs/litre - it looks like I'm somewhere round $240/litre, and I've not added in any EQ to that or the van hire/diesel to collect them...  :blink:

Yah but but how many people have what you do? It's always nice to have something others don't. I know I've never seen anyone else with PPSL's like those. :)

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