BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[Bossobass Dave]

While we have industry standards for level, bandwidth... there is none I can find about feel. So all we have are opinions. On one side of the spectrum you have someone like Paul Hales check out 53:45 on for a few minutes.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/1478854-science-room-paul-hales.html

 

He even talks about source material vs. steady state signals. I think this is something you would like and agree with what he has to say Dave. 

 

Then on the other side of the spectrum you have someone like Dr. Hsu who uses one of his mbm's right behind him crossed over to another sub ~ 50hz. 

 

So I say people should Edison it up and try different setups to find out what they like for their system.

 

Archaea another thing is your enclosures are too small IMO for your drivers. The UM's just don't have the motor and the clean power handling of the LMS's. Larger enlosures would increase efficiency down low and you wouldn't need as much boost or worry of power compression. 

 

Great post. Thanks for the link, the guy is on the ball. I also loved the mental picture of hangin' out at Dr Hsu's place watching him check out some movie clips.

 

I believe there is something going on with the stacks of the Raptor systems that will eventually be solved regarding how they relate to Dom's quest for tactile response vs magnitude in dBSPL. The system 3 physically kicks my arse, and I don't just mean <10 Hz because I'm on a suspended wood structure. IOW, Raptor has a very high tactile response vs other systems I've built and purchased to evaluate. I think Adam can co-sign that from his own experience in a basement on a slab.

 

Some day I'll get the time, the tools and the gumption to figure out what it is about the stacks that adds the visceral attack. In any case, it's why I don't explore near field (besides, I did that a decade ago and have documented the results) or TT attached to seats/riser.

 

I don't know anything about the UM drivers but I know there's something amiss with Arch's system just from the data and comments so far. I'm also convinced that the Berry class D amps don't have what it takes. The power supply will take a dump feeding an L/T'd sealed rig playing low end demo scenes at reference +9dBFS, no question in my mind. Rated power should be enough, but no one has tested one with a wide bandwidth input signal centered at 7 Hz. That amp will STB (ask Ricci for the acronym explanation) every time... just an educated guess.

[Infrasonic]

Dave, have any amp suggestions apart from a modified Sanway?

[Bossobass Dave]

Dave, have any amp suggestions apart from a modified Sanway?

 

 

 

Sanway wishes. I explored the so-called 'clones'. When Rob pinged me he said he was thinking of buying from CVR or Tasso or Gisen. I turned him on to Johnson (Sanway) because I knew the other 3 to be rip offs.

 

Since then, I've bought many versions of the clones which were all quite different in details and quality. I found one with engineers who know what the heck they're doing and they made the modifications and finally, after a grueling 12 years search, I'm amplifier-happy.

 

It ain't no Sanway "with a few minor alterations..."

 

Really, I haven't looked at any other amps in the past couple years because this A-14K is the shizit for HT sub duty. I know it's expected I say that because I sell them exclusively, but... I tried QSC 5050, CV5K, Marathon 5050, AA V6000 and the rest of the big iron amps and they're great for the $$ although big and heavy. The IPRs, iNukes, etc., are junk, IMO and the SP amps are too spendy. If there's a new kid on the block, I'm blissfully unaware.

[Infrasonic]

Thanks for replying about that, Dave. I understand there is more to it than being simply a "modified Sanway". I was oversimplifying.

 

I've watched in great interest all there is of these "clones" and followed your endeavors. It appears you've made one of the best amps out there and I can only wish I could afford such a beast. One is a stretch by any of my means. Several seems impossible and not just for myself. I hope in maybe a few years I can pick up a couple and replace my Berry's.

[Madaeel]

I'm here Scott.  All this tactile feeling and sealed vs ported talk is making my head hurt.

 

I understand where both sides are coming from and can sympathize with the slab guys. Even Josh said on his slab with 8 XXX's it's tame. Dave is a snooty suspended floor sonbitch! Though Dave, Paul, and myself have heard a Raptor system 3 on a slab AND a suspended floor so we're pretty much experts on the matter.  Same system and a very similar FR.

 

Dave was right when he said it's violent in my room. Some movies literally scare me. I've said it multiple times already but I'll say it again. Below 10hz you need a riser or suspended floor to get that wobble. If you ain't got it then I wouldn't bother with anything below that. I feel it, but its subtle to say the least compared to Dave's room. Me personally, the way the Raptors look, even if I never build a riser or move them to a suspended floor I feel I got my money's worth and then some. The wife and I are looking at moving and if we do I'll have one or the other cuz honestly there's nothing like it. People who say it isn't worth it haven't experienced it at all or can't feel it. I haven't seen one person mention some of the best ULF scenes in some of the 4 star and up movies.  That alone tells me something is up.

 

Above 10hz though is a blast in my room. I'll reach my ears limits before the Raptors will. This is why it confuses me when multiple people have said even from 10-20hz they don't feel much on a slab. I realize every room is different but come on if you're on a slab and you got ten thousand 18's and a gigawatt of power you should be feeling some shit below 20hz. A tickle on the balls or something.

 

As far as near field goes I don't know. PVL still doesn't make sense to me since unless the driver is firing directly into the couch, chair, etc then you don't feel shit. I had a whole Raptor system near field and my lows dropped and my FR looked like the Rockies. Having a wall directly behind the subs would've helped as well as a flat FR. It was way too much to do in my case and if I only had a half stack near field no way I'd have the dispalcement to do anything meaningfull with the ULF so what was the point. Which also makes me think most guys with near field set ups are not feeling the ULF....they just THINK they are. Speclab would help.

 

Honestly the only reason I would do near field is like Beast then I wouldn't bother my wife upstairs. Other than that it's not needed for me. Like Luke said though YMMV.

[SME]

Subwoofers do not pressurize a room. They create a pressure wave in the room. Ambient pressure is unaffected.

As frequency gets very low, the pressure wave becomes more stationary and more uniform in level throughout the room.  The room begins to look a lot like a pressure vessel with the subwoofer acting as a piston.  It's not perfect but is a good model if the TL is low enough.  It also represents a sort of "best case scenario".  And yes, it suggests that room size matters, even if it isn't the only consideration.

 

Exciting a resonance never results in a decrease in amplitude. It always results in an increase in amplitude.

 

Several of us have shown that opening doors and/or windows actually increases ULF in dBSPL, to dispel the myth that a sealed room offers higher output at any frequency.

 

I wasn't talking about resonances involving the air in the room (i.e. room modes) but rather resonances of the room surfaces.  If your floor shakes violently in a narrow region around 7 Hz, then a lot of the energy of the room is transmitted through it and exits the room in the process.  It's also possible for room surfaces to add a phase change to the reflected wave.

 

And even when considering room mode resonances, amplitude decreases in the region around the nulls of a mode.

 

As for opening a door or window increasing ULF output, isn't this just an example of converting a sealed system (the room with the door closed) to a ported system (with the door open)?  At least the port in this case may be tuned lower than is practical with a box type enclosure.

 

These rooms var from 1600 cubes to over 6000 cubes:

 

 

They are (+/-) 2.5dB.

 

Can you explain what measurements you made and what processing you used to arrive at these curves?  Am I supposed to interpret 80 dB as being "0 dB room gain"?  It looks like you used some extreme smoothing above 40 Hz and that you normalized each response to be the same above 40 Hz.  While this does permit one to see the relative increase in room-contributed output for frequencies < 40 Hz versus > 40 Hz, it does not describe room gain in a general sense.  For example, consider what happens if you measure 1 foot from the sub instead of 4 meters.  The room gain will appear to be much less at 1 foot because the measured response will look more like the sub's native response than the room's, even though the room gain didn't change at all.  Furthermore, room size also affects response above 40 Hz, particularly for measurement positions farther from the sub.  By normalizing those curves, you're basically throwing out that information as well.

[SME]

You guys with all that room gain make me jealous.  What's makes me even more jealous is Dave's floor that resonates at ~7hz.  

 

What Josh tested to ~102db at 10hz outdoors at 2 meters with only makes it to 106db at 10hz in my room.  A whopping 4db of room gain...super lame.  

A gain of 4 dB is pretty lame.  Do you have a dip in the response there?  What does it look like at 5 Hz?

[Bossobass Dave]

As frequency gets very low, the pressure wave becomes more stationary and more uniform in level throughout the room.  The room begins to look a lot like a pressure vessel with the subwoofer acting as a piston.  It's not perfect but is a good model if the TL is low enough.  It also represents a sort of "best case scenario".  And yes, it suggests that room size matters, even if it isn't the only consideration.

 

That's a cool theory, even though you're stating it as a matter of fact, that I once took at face value but no one has ever posted a shred of data to prove it.

 

I wasn't talking about resonances involving the air in the room (i.e. room modes) but rather resonances of the room surfaces.  If your floor shakes violently in a narrow region around 7 Hz, then a lot of the energy of the room is transmitted through it and exits the room in the process.  It's also possible for room surfaces to add a phase change to the reflected wave.

 

The result of exciting a resonance is always an increase in level, never a decrease in level.

 

And even when considering room mode resonances, amplitude decreases in the region around the nulls of a mode.

 

Modes do not exist in the region being discussed.

 

As for opening a door or window increasing ULF output, isn't this just an example of converting a sealed system (the room with the door closed) to a ported system (with the door open)?  At least the port in this case may be tuned lower than is practical with a box type enclosure.

 

So, your doorway is a port? irrelevant. You say the more sealed a room is, the higher the RG. This is a myth with zero data to support it.

 

Can you explain what measurements you made and what processing you used to arrive at these curves?  Am I supposed to interpret 80 dB as being "0 dB room gain"?  It looks like you used some extreme smoothing above 40 Hz and that you normalized each response to be the same above 40 Hz.  While this does permit one to see the relative increase in room-contributed output for frequencies < 40 Hz versus > 40 Hz, it does not describe room gain in a general sense.  For example, consider what happens if you measure 1 foot from the sub instead of 4 meters.  The room gain will appear to be much less at 1 foot because the measured response will look more like the sub's native response than the room's, even though the room gain didn't change at all.  Furthermore, room size also affects response above 40 Hz, particularly for measurement positions farther from the sub.  By normalizing those curves, you're basically throwing out that information as well.

 

See below vvv

 

 

As the graph is labeled, they are Room Gain Profiles. They are derived from posted in-room responses from reliable sources compared to known ground plane native measurements. The dBSPL value is irrelevant, only the scale of 5dB per division is pertinent.

 

Josh's, Rob's and my own reflect a dip in response as we were curious as to why many posted responses show a dip in the 10-20 Hz decade. We have since solved that poser. Josh's and my profiles also show the effect of signal chain roll off. I have other graphs that just show the RGP but grabbed that one out of convenience.

 

Frequency response above the onset of Room Gain is irrelevant.

 

 

The average RG profile is that RG begins in the 30-40 Hz decade, progresses at an average of 7dB/octave and is tempered at the low end by signal chain roll off. I have done dozens of these over the years. The theory that RG begins at the frequency whose wave length is twice longest room dimension does not correspond to the data. If it did, the RG profiles would have a huge variance. The only variable is transmission loss which only affects the dB/octave gain.

 

So, here's the thing; if you believe that some theoretical infinitely long cylinder made of infinitely rigid material floating in the vacuum of space has relevance to HT RG, please post the data. Otherwise, we have a literal ocean of data that supports progressively constructive reflections minus transmission losses and signal chain roll off equals room gain. The AVS archives contains pages of threads that discuss the subject to death and I really don't care to relive that anew.

 

Ported... Sealed, Pressure Vessel... Progressively Constructive Reflections, TT or no TT, Near Field or No Near Field, Flat or House Curve, Flat or +15dB Hot, Full Bandwidth or Lopped Bandwidth, Less Filling... Tastes Great.

[Spacebug]

...  I'm also convinced that the Berry class D amps don't have what it takes. The power supply will take a dump feeding an L/T'd sealed rig playing low end demo scenes at reference +9dBFS, no question in my mind. Rated power should be enough, but no one has tested one with a wide bandwidth input signal centered at 7 Hz. That amp will STB (ask Ricci for the acronym explanation) every time... just an educated guess.

 

No disrespect or anything here but I do get the impression from some of your posts that you more or less disregards any amplifiers that is not up to par with A-14K.

That is fine and all since you're entitled to your own opinions, I just reacted to this because I have some Berry amps and know how they handle things.

I think a more nuanced way to look at things, any amp really, would be to judge things by their respective capabilities.

 

 

Like many class D amps Berry has "skimped" some on the power supply, not allowing a long term, full power output of the amplifier.

This is done because of crestfactors, allowing high power peaks to avoid clipping is usually more important in music than long term high power output, music has seldome 0dB crestfactor

But of course there is no hard rule, perhaps mostly in movies, what with directors intent and all, nothing stopping someone to put 0dBFS signals in the LFE track for instance...

 

Anyhow, most class D amplifiers dial back the power after some short time, Berry Inuke 3000 for example drops power a few dB after 3s I think of full power.

For reasons unknown, the 6000 model does not apply this protection scheme, instead just cuts out and power cycles if sustained power is too high.

Tests have shown the 6000 can deliver about 1kW per channel into 8ohms for a minute (i'm guessing indefinetly).

Since the powersupply is on the weak side it cannot properly power the amplifier at full power in 4ohms (due to power doubling to 4ohm).

One channel at full power in 4ohms work well for 1 minute, producing about 2kW, but drive both channels to full power and it will cut out.

Both channels driven to -3dB/ half power in 4ohm works well, as that gives a power draw equivalent of full power both channels driven in 8ohms.

So for Inuke 6000, in 8ohms both channels driven to full power is just fine, 4ohms one channel driven full is fine, or both channels driven to half power each, but not both channels driven fully.

 

 

Basically, like any amp really, just use it within its limits and it will do fine, not really any point driving an amp to clipping since it just gives distortion and no higher power...

Lesser amps can work fine as long as you don't need more power per channel, powering multiple subs works just as well with multiple amps as with a single beefy amp powering them all...

 

 

From my tests on inuke 6000 with modified highpass filters i also have found that frequency content does not matter, keeping it within its power limits there is no difference in the ampliers ability to drive 20Hz sinewaves or 2Hz or even 1Hz, atleast from my tests that is.

Not sure if this is universally true for all amps, probably not, but still...

Theoretically, class D amplifiers in half-bridge configuration would be susceptible to bus pumping at low frequencies, but since the 6000 is configured in permanent full-bridge that problem is remedied.

 

Lastly, and I know you probably knows this, but driving a sealed sub or other alignment, with or without LT does not matter for the amplifier, if power levels are withing the amplifiers limits.

My opinion is that LT should not be considered as "boost" or "more power" as the maximum power an amp can deliver is determined by the amp, not by the signal processing before the amplifier.

It should instead be considered as loss of headroom, an LT of 10dB or other signal processing with signal lift just means you loose 10dB of headroom in the frequency spectrum where the lift is not applied, if one should be sure to never clip the amplifier.

Sure, one can disregard that loss of headroom and drive the amplifier higher, but then it will clip if frequencies occur that gets the full lift from the signal processing, and since it is clipped the full 10dB lift will not occur at the amplifier output, instead say 5dB lift and some distortion depending on how much it is clipped/overdriven...

 

 

Anyway, rant mode off!

 

Just wanted to say that since from my side some of your posts have come across somewhat one-sided, as in no amp but the A-14K is good enough to drive subs.

I'm guessing that is not what you mean, but it is how I'm perceiving some of your posts.

It really comes down to ones needs if one amp is suitable or not...

[Shredhead]

It really comes down to ones needs if one amp is suitable or not...

No shit Spacebug. 

 

Your iNuke would shit it's self trying to drive a Raptor system 3. 

[Infrasonic]

I doubt that. The Raptor system is not inherently difficult load. 

Your expectations of 'flat to 2hz' would be the only thing unrealized. That or maximum total SPL utilization. Of course not.

[Spacebug]

No shit Spacebug. 

 

Your iNuke would shit it's self trying to drive a Raptor system 3. 

 

But ofcourse it cannot power it fully  

 

However, if my understanding is correct, a Raptor system 3 consists of multiple drivers, which does not nessesary need to be driven by only one amplifier.

The nuke6000 may be weak enough to not cope with even one driver, i'm not sure.

My point is that if you distribute the power over a few amps, and not insist on powering the whole system with just one amp, it is not nessesary to chase multi kilowatt per channel amps and thereby ruling out all other lesser amps.

Using multiple amps can be a way to make cheaper/weaker amps work just fine even in some large systems, if you just know the amps limitations and design/scale power with that in mind...

[Bossobass Dave]

Good golly...

 

The iNuke gives about 1.7K into 4 ohms nominal per side without tripping. If your sealed sub has a 10dB L/T, you can use 170W with the rest in the tank for any content <10-15 Hz, with zero headroom.

 

Using 2 of them for a Raptor III, that's 680 watts total for 8 drivers (85W/driver), 6800W total at peaks on full bandwidth effects playback. At reference levels, watching WOTW it would be a tossup as to whether you'd watch the screen or the clip lights. And, that's running flat, forget running hot.

 

IMO, you'd need 4 of them and you'd still be lacking power. I've tried more capable amps and I'm not prone to exaggeration for any reason. There are amplifiers that will get the job done, but the price is higher, as I said while posting on the subject.

 

Of course, buy whatever floats your boat and operate whatever system at whatever levels with whatever signal chain you prefer. That's all well and good, but doesn't make the Berry a more capable amp than it is.

[Infrasonic]

Same rules apply for the A14k. It just has about 4dB more output capability over the inuke which cost less than a 1/6th as much.

 

If the A14k can do 4400w then with 10dB of LT that is ~440w left for the bandwidth above the boost.

 

Don't really get the argument for either power level as all that bandwidth above the LT is probably in the high 90's or even ~100dB sensitive. 100w will get you far on a system like the Raptor or many +8 18 sealed system.

 

If there really isn't "enough power to supply a full Raptor" then get a channel of inuke power per driver. Four 6k's is half the price of the A14k. If there is 110w per driver with the A14k then there will be 170w with the cheaper inukes.

 

 

But really, there are more than one to skin a cat. A single hella hardcore big amp like the A14k or several smaller, cheaper amps like the Berry. What is wrong solution for one person is the most elegant to another.

[dominguez1]

I believe there is something going on with the stacks of the Raptor systems that will eventually be solved regarding how they relate to Dom's quest for tactile response vs magnitude in dBSPL. The system 3 physically kicks my arse, and I don't just mean <10 Hz because I'm on a suspended wood structure. IOW, Raptor has a very high tactile response vs other systems I've built and purchased to evaluate. I think Adam can co-sign that from his own experience in a basement on a slab.

 

Some day I'll get the time, the tools and the gumption to figure out what it is about the stacks that adds the visceral attack. In any case, it's why I don't explore near field (besides, I did that a decade ago and have documented the results) or TT attached to seats/riser.

Hmmm...perhaps the dual opposed floor to ceiling design effectively makes it a very large driver from a sound intensity standpoint, and thus extends the near field even further into the room? I dunno...but am damn curious...

 

Maybe Adam will be kind enough to have me over this summer...?

 

Actually, I'm trying to get @laugsbach to make a roadtrip with me on the June 13th weekend. The plan was to stop at MKs, but maybe stop at Adam's first on the 13th and then hit MK on the 14th?

 

Hmmmm...

[Bossobass Dave]

Same rules apply for the A14k. It just has about 4dB more output capability over the inuke which cost less than a 1/6th as much.

 

If the A14k can do 4400w then with 10dB of LT that is ~440w left for the bandwidth above the boost.

 

Don't really get the argument for either power level as all that bandwidth above the LT is probably in the high 90's or even ~100dB sensitive. 100w will get you far on a system like the Raptor or many +8 18 sealed system.

 

If there really isn't "enough power to supply a full Raptor" then get a channel of inuke power per driver. Four 6k's is half the price of the A14k. If there is 110w per driver with the A14k then there will be 170w with the cheaper inukes.

 

 

But really, there are more than one to skin a cat. A single hella hardcore big amp like the A14k or several smaller, cheaper amps like the Berry. What is wrong solution for one person is the most elegant to another.

 

Four iNuke6000s for $849? Really?

 

The A-14K was measured drawing 33.1 amps, 7240W, bridged into a nominal 3.4 ohms during playback of entering the grid from Tron. Would I prefer trying a quad of iNuke6Ks to match that? I don't have room in the rack for 4 2RU amps, for one, and SB's rant didn't mention using a channel per driver times 8, which is really a whole nuther ballgame.

 

The NU6Ks I messed with shut down regularly. They aren't the amp for the job... for me. Sorry, I didn't get the brilliant idea to use four of them.

 

And, SB... ALL of my posts are absolutely one-sided when it comes to powering Raptor III.   I've searched for 12 years for a single source to power a reference level, full bandwidth subwoofer system without whining. I've got a corner of the warehouse stacked with dead amplifiers to prove it. Anyone commenting on the subject will have to show me equal or better or I stay one-sided.

 

Ask Josh if he'll test Nick's HS-24 with a Berry NU6K vs his K-20 and we'll have something to talk about.

[Bossobass Dave]

Hmmm...perhaps the dual opposed floor to ceiling design effectively makes it a very large driver from a sound intensity standpoint, and thus extends the near field even further into the room? I dunno...but am damn curious...

 

Maybe Adam will be kind enough to have me over this summer...?

 

Actually, I'm trying to get @laugsbach to make a roadtrip with me on the June 13th weekend. The plan was to stop at MKs, but maybe stop at Adam's first on the 13th and then hit MK on the 14th?

 

Hmmmm...

 

That would be pretty cool. I hope it works out.

 

Really, Dom, I've been off and on thinking about the subject and realized that I get fairly radical tactile feel across the bandwidth, not just the shake <10 Hz, as most people seem obsessed with tossing poking me in the eye about. It'd be cool to have your input if you and Adam can swing it.

[dominguez1]

Ask Josh if he'll test Nick's HS-24 with a Berry NU6K vs his K-20 and we'll have something to talk about.

Actually, I love that idea....but could be done with any capable driver, really.

 

I would be great to show the difference between the popular Berry's vs the K-20 just to show real world differences across the passband for the DIY world.

 

Demonstrate how much they're leaving on the table potentially...

 

Josh? 

[Luke Kamp]

Actually, I love that idea....but could be done with any capable driver, really.

 

I would be great to show the difference between the popular Berry's vs the K-20 just to show real world differences across the passband for the DIY world.

 

Demonstrate how much they're leaving on the table potentially...

 

Josh? 

 

Good stuff. This along with cea in room measurements and commentary on source material between the two would make a great addition to the 

 

Article Archive

 

[Madaeel]

Maybe Adam will be kind enough to have me over this summer...?

 

Actually, I'm trying to get @laugsbach to make a roadtrip with me on the June 13th weekend. The plan was to stop at MKs, but maybe stop at Adam's first on the 13th and then hit MK on the 14th?

You and Larry are good for the 13th if you wanna stop over Dom. Maybe we can figure out this whole PVL while you're here.  

[dominguez1]

Awesome! Will work on firming things up...

[Madaeel]

Just bring the Rythmiks with you.

[MKtheater]

Maybe I will have 20 si's by then.

[Archaea]

Bosso,

 

I can't attach videos or files here, so I linked the FR capture information of my eight UM18's you requested in my room thread on AVSforum.

 

See post 824 of this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-general-home-theater-media-game-rooms/1525397-archaea-s-multi-purpose-home-theater-room-28.html#post34066634

[Infrasonic]

Four iNuke6000s for $849? Really?

Dude, idk. Lol. I thought your a14k was ~$2,500 or something. It's still a lot for a broke, cheapwad like me.

 

The A-14K was measured drawing 33.1 amps, 7240W, bridged into a nominal 3.4 ohms during playback of entering the grid from Tron. That's awesome.

 

Would I prefer trying a quad of iNuke6Ks to match that? I don't have room in the rack for 4 2RU amps, for one, and SB's rant didn't mention using a channel per driver times 8, which is really a whole nuther ballgame.

That's just it. It is and a very viable option for some/most/all people who can't get your very special amp. It's great but I can't just order one and have it here in two days. We be impatient AND cheap, yo.

 

The NU6Ks I messed with shut down regularly. They aren't the amp for the job... for me. Sorry, I didn't get the brilliant idea to use four of them.

You did actually. You've gone through a gauntlet of many, many amps. It is only now that you have the wonder amp. Rewind 5 years and it was something else that was your amp of choice.

 

And, SB... ALL of my posts are absolutely one-sided when it comes to powering Raptor III.   I've searched for 12 years for a single source to power a reference level, full bandwidth subwoofer system without whining. I've got a corner of the warehouse stacked with dead amplifiers to prove it. Anyone commenting on the subject will have to show me equal or better or I stay one-sided.

 

Ask Josh if he'll test Nick's HS-24 with a Berry NU6K vs his K-20 and we'll have something to talk about.

Of course the Berry would be worse. It's also a 1/20th the price of a K-20 and only a handful of useful dB lower. Worth the price? Not for everybody.

 

Great post, B. I gotta shake you cage a bit as you're held to a very high standard. A friendly and informative poke every once in a while is good for your health.