BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[Madaeel]

FINALLY, someone who gets it. Play nice or I'll head to the content forum and start a thread about how the current metric needs to be changed entirely because... well, just because.

 

It gets pretty boring these days, what with PC and text messaging. My head's already about halfway there so James' HT would do the rick with little coaxing of the MV control.

 

Adam's as well. They both run +10dB hot. We should hold a shootout at James', then fly to Adam's and then vote.

 

BTW, Adam, where ya bin dood? You were supposed to report back on your marathon movie watching weekend.

Them damn dbs over all this time finally got to me and gave me the shakes.

 

My Speclab settings got all screwed up. Seems like it reverted back to the default settings or something. I never mess with it so idk how it did but it's weird to watch a movie with no graphs. That and because it was actually above 50 degrees I spent some time in the great outdoors.

 

I'll watch a couple this weekend but all I'll have to prove it is those superlatives everyone on AVS throws around. "It was the most dope bass ever", it broke all my neighbors dishes", "it cracked my concrete slab" etc.

 

I'm down for the shootout! Though I think James or Brandon definitely take the crown.

Seriously Dave?...How could you not know? Look at the freaking avatar man!

Haha that's exactly how I knew it was Scott. Only guy that has an avatar of mains that look like subs with the port on the top.

[Bossobass Dave]

I'm down for the shootout! Though I think James or Brandon definitely take the crown.

 

Funny, I was searching for something unrelated and somehow got onto the AVS DIY thread about Nick's HST-24 vs JJ's vaporware 24.

 

Wow, how the silly debates are about how to measure Xmax, Klippel measurements and metrics, 1dB this vs 1dB that, what amp can cook what driver with a sine wave input for what length of time, etc.

 

First, I remember breakin' Nick's balls a bit when he launched the HT series thread at AVS because the pic he showed of the double stitched surround showed the stitching running off the surround altogether. Since then, and since the sudden exodus of Exodus, I've seen and heard various series of Nick's drivers in various sizes and have experienced their extremely high quality and sound with real source as input. I can say without hesitation that his products are all that and he's an awesome asset to the industry. It's good for the DIYers that he so ably stepped up and more than filled the void left by Kevin Haskins.

 

That said, according to the specs he lists for the drivers that Brandon and James use, the displacement is 5.3L per 18. I've posted a very conservative 4.95L for the BHT-15 and it's probably actually more like 5.4L. That tells me that the drivers alone would not be enough to award any crown. The differences would be much more measurable from the room's transmission loss coefficient, the preferred native FR and amplifier power. All 3 are basement HTs with very low TL and, IMHO, the amplifier power goes to Adam, so it would be an interesting exercise (and loads of fun 'cause everyone involved is fun as hell to hang with).

Second, reading that thread today reminded me of the thousands of hours I've wasted on a dozen forums over the years debating things like "...according to Ilkka's GP session, driver 'x' measures 5% less THD than driver 'z' at 12 Hz with 1dB more output...", and group delay, spectral decay, maximum sine wave compression sweep numbers at 10 Hz, etc., etc. Of course, in my own defense, back in the day when the 1x12" ported sub was constantly hailed as the pinnacle of mankind's achievement, 20mm of Xmax was phenomenal and the Tumult's 34mm Xmax rating was a singularly rare alien technology and most people didn't know how bass management worked, many things like inductance and group delay needed to be debated.

 

Today, these sorts of debates are kinda silly. There's no longer an LMS-U that dominates the driver world with all comers trailing miles behind. The UXL-18, HST-18, Z-V4-18, FTW-21, HS-24 and others are in the same league and, regarding all of the supposed differences in performance are all very close in actual-use performance vs things like room transmission loss, signal chain and amplifier capability. As an additional note on the subject, that MTX-9515-44 kicks arse and I'm looking forward to the results of it in a bigger box.

 

Another thing I saw in that thread that has always prodded me into debate was notnyt's ridiculous ported vs sealed claims. He calims, for one thing, that his sims match his measured performance. Okey Dokey.

 

Here's what he posted in this very forum regarding that:

 

 

For reference, the dashed lines are Ilkka's and Josh's GP measured FR of the LMS-U in a sealed box. They show a difference of about 6-7dB maximum at ported tune difference is basic response, not 15dB difference, as claimed. That's a difference in basic response and has nothing whatever to do with actual maximum output differences. notnyt measured his sealed system giving 130dB at 10 Hz, which would infer >130dB higher in frequency, where ported tune resides. That measurement was supposedly taken at the seats in his room and showed extremely low THD. That would mean, for claims to be true, the ported version would give >145dB at 14 or 15 Hz or whatever the ported tune actually is. That would also have to be with zero port chuff and no screaming THD just above and below that point as well. And, that doesn't address GD, which is radically different and possibly has something to do with Dom's tactile sensation theories and discoveries. The loss of the first 2 octaves is glossed over because there was already a HPF in place on the sealed system and so the ULF was not important to the claimant. Nope, it's just about how much hotter one may be able to run the subwoofer system... take WinISD's sim, an obviously flawed FRM measurement result and subjective jargon for it.

 

Yet, this shit (after 'only' quadrupling the box size and adding a port that lops off the first two octaves) that the same driver in a ported box adds +15dB of output, gets a complete pass in every thread it's been spewed in without a single question or a shred of data, while posters (like not) who've never seen, heard or measured Nick's HS-24 break his nuts about Le and Xmax specs. That was some crazy stuff, but reminded me that the proof is always in the pudding. Josh's regimen of tests is the best anyone has ever offered and is much appreciated, but, it's ludicrous to believe that's all one needs to assess a sub in a specific listening space, integrated into any multi-channel system with every disc ever mixed and with every user's post mix production skills (or lack thereof) applied.

 

Either way, I've learned most of what I know on the subject by traveling the good ole USA to meets, shootouts and listening sessions. Sine waves are not used for input or to show anything else about the sound from a system. Real source is used, the sweet spot is shared by all, source favorites are played, many of which I would never have heard of or bought if I hadn't heard them at the GTGs, etc. I moved away from attending them and it seems that fewer people have them but I'm down for getting back into it.

 

The GTG at Brandon's was great and we got to play with LMS-U, RE-XXX, HT-18 and HS-24. The visit and system 3 set up at Adam's was epic and his visit here was as well. Paul's been out of town but I'm looking forward to headin' to Nick's and will hopefully see Brandon there as well. I swear I'll get ot Jame's HT this summer and bring measurement gear so I'll finally know what the scoop is there.

[Ricci]

I feel similar Dave...I've spent so much time on my own investigating and learning about what matters to me and some of the opinions and posts of others make me shake my head in disbelief. Either that or they make me wonder what I might be missing. I plan to get out and listen to other guys systems as well. Graphs and technical data can tell you a lot but there's nothing like actually being in the room and experiencing someone else's setup yourself.

[Bossobass Dave]

I feel similar Dave...I've spent so much time on my own investigating and learning about what matters to me and some of the opinions and posts of others make me shake my head in disbelief. Either that or they make me wonder what I might be missing. I plan to get out and listen to other guys systems as well. Graphs and technical data can tell you a lot but there's nothing like actually being in the room and experiencing someone else's setup yourself.

 

I remember the other Brandon's GTG when you put yourself out to tackle the logistics and measurements that made the GTG worth following. I remember thinking how cool this new kid on the block was for doing that, having some idea how much work it is and how the work is for nothing if the set up and procedure aren't followed precisely, especially when there are a bunch of general enthusiasts there drinking beer and hollering out suggestions.

 

I look up to you for your accomplishments in the field. Low frequency reproduction, outside the 30 Hz-120 Hz area that it's been in for 70 years or so, is sparsely populated with real data and valid comparisons and full of first octaves deniers. Mullen has a real job for a number of years now, Ilkka has followed him in that respect and the mighty Tom Nousaine has passed on. Those are some pretty big shoes to fill and, IMHO, you've filled them and then some.

 

Just saw the opportunity and feel it needs to be mentioned more often. 

[MKtheater]

Why do I keep reading on AVS that 15-30hz is the critical area?  I find it funny since that is where ported subs have more output from their sealed counterparts. 

 

As to comparing systems, I have never been in a race or I would fill my wall up.  I always thought I needed what I have for a clean single digit playback at my levels.  I have 12 of the SIHT-18's but they were built in huge enclosures so the normal 12000 watts needed in normal enclosures is not required, I just need 3200 watts.  I did this on purpose because they enclosures are large enough to fit 12 more if need be and then add another amp.  I figured all that for bragging rights and 6 dB of more headroom that I won't use because all this is in a 1450 cubed room.  Adam has been in my room and knows what 12 eD 13avs can do and those measure like an 8 inch for the cone.  Since then I added the new drivers, IB, and build all the seats on a riser.  The back surrounds sit on the two subs back there.

[Bossobass Dave]

Why do I keep reading on AVS that 15-30hz is the critical area?  I find it funny since that is where ported subs have more output from their sealed counterparts. 

 

You've answered your own question. 

 

As to comparing systems, I have never been in a race or I would fill my wall up.  I always thought I needed what I have for a clean single digit playback at my levels.  I have 12 of the SIHT-18's but they were built in huge enclosures so the normal 12000 watts needed in normal enclosures is not required, I just need 3200 watts.  I did this on purpose because they enclosures are large enough to fit 12 more if need be and then add another amp.  I figured all that for bragging rights and 6 dB of more headroom that I won't use because all this is in a 1450 cubed room.  Adam has been in my room and knows what 12 eD 13avs can do and those measure like an 8 inch for the cone.  Since then I added the new drivers, IB, and build all the seats on a riser.  The back surrounds sit on the two subs back there.

 

 

No race, assuming you mean loudness. Just a matter of displacement, power, transmission loss. 12 SI drivers vs 8 of them is only a couple of dB of headroom. All 3 HTs are in basements. There are differences, like your higher efficiency using larger boxes, but that is largely irrelevant when you have 15dB of headroom.

 

You can have 3dB more efficiency in a larger box but lose 6dB or more through transmission loss and/or signal chain roll off.

 

The point I'm trying to make with all of this road trip GTG comparison stuff is that everyone, for example, who has ever seriously discussed systems in a room admits first that the room's influence is far greater than differences in say, DIY subs using similar power and drivers. But, in Dom's thread, for example, all that's considered from the room is it's size. In most every discussion of so-called uber-subs, max output capability is the only metric that's argued to death.

 

When someone posts he runs +15dB hot, the assumption is that 0dB is a properly calibrated flat response to 3 Hz, which it never is in reality.

 

There's a lot more to a system in a room. That's what makes each system different, or similar, or the same. Like I said, there's no crown, just the fun of discovery and how those discoveries might make your own system a better one.

[MKtheater]

I agree. I would love to get your measuring gear in my room so I could really see what I need to do down low.

[dominguez1]

I feel similar Dave...I've spent so much time on my own investigating and learning about what matters to me and some of the opinions and posts of others make me shake my head in disbelief. Either that or they make me wonder what I might be missing. I plan to get out and listen to other guys systems as well. Graphs and technical data can tell you a lot but there's nothing like actually being in the room and experiencing someone else's setup yourself.

You plan on coming into Cincinnati this summer? @laugsbach and I will reserve front row seats in both of our HT's for you. Between our HTs you can check out Fusion 15s, Fusion 12s, Crowsons, Maggies, Volt 10s, FTW21s, ULF tuned HT seating, nearfield placement, as well a bunch of subs you've already heard (UXL, HST18, FV15HP, XXX Ported, etc.), all in well treated rooms with Panny 3D projectors and 138" screens. 

[MKtheater]

BTW, my signal chain rolloff is only my outlaw 975 with a -3 dB at 3hz and my clone amp.

[Ricci]

Hey Dom...I should come up and see you and Larry sometime. It's not very far. Maybe I'll see if I can get out that way this summer.

[laugsbach]

Hey Dom...I should come up and see you and Larry sometime. It's not very far. Maybe I'll see if I can get out that way this summer.

 

Please do Josh! It would be great to do a mini gtg with you and Dom...

[BeastAudio]

Why do I keep reading on AVS that 15-30hz is the critical area?  I find it funny since that is where ported subs have more output from their sealed counterparts. 

 

 

 

The trend at AVS has swung back to the ported, er sorry, martysubs. Hahahahaha I love how everything is called marty now. THere is even a "Marty stage" that some guy is building. I have no idea why that name stuck so well, but it has infiltrated everything....

 

But in reality, the trends at avs are like waves. ported comes in, then horns will take the stage again, which lead to LLT's coming back around, and subsequently back to Sealed/dual opposed type builds. Then you'll see IB comeback from there. It's a never-ending circle. I rode it once and got off at multiple sealed.... IMO the end of the tracks really....

[MKtheater]

I agree, it is just that there are no more Bosso vs Callas type of disagreements with actual data to back things up.  Now you just get people saying whatever based on their vast knowledge of trying a sealed sub vs a ported and saying it was so much deeper!  You can't even talk reason with them and why.  Don't bother with less than 15hz, I tried it and you feel nothing, or not worth it.  In my room you can clearly feel 6hz waves hit you in the back during Bass I love you but it is not shaking my room so it must be not worth it. 

[Infrasonic]

I'm pretty happy with my sealed system. I wanted it all: SPL, extension and great SQ. A dozen 18's in ~2kcuft set me straight. In another room I'd like to try them all IB but that's not going to happen here. Probably never going to do a resonant system again but if I do, it will be LLT's again. One day I'll try some PR's but not with my current 18's.

 

Went to a Kansas City GTG this weekend. Heard all sorts of systems. I'm still all about multiples of sealed.

 

Crowsons are pretty cool too. Got to play with those finally. All of us on concrete should really consider them.

[SME]

Silly.  From my (admittedly) light overview of the subject, each design has its merits.  The problem is, most people have no clue what they want or need or even what can achieved.  One important criterion is budget versus ease of implementation.

 

For home users, I think LLTs hit a nice sweet spot by providing great performance in large rooms in the form of "plug-and-play" I.D.s at very reasonable cost.  I don't think sealed designs become interesting until the user is either willing to pay a lot more or invest a lot more effort or both.  They are really more appropriate for high end performance.  But of course, if one is building subs for oneself (rather than to mass market) and is willing to debate the merits of each design, I see little reason to not go sealed.

 

Of course, if I wanted to throw a good party up in the mountains, I'd go for a tapped horn design tuned as low as reasonably possible.

 

IBs seem to hit the spot for budget DIY.  Buy many cheap woofers and a decent amp you get great SPL and extension for low cost.  I'm not sure I buy the sound quality argument though.  True, if the box is too small, the non-linear air spring contributes distortion.  Does the higher power requirement significantly increase sealed box distortion, assuming the woofers are well built?  And given that suspension seems to dominate distortion in the same frequency range that power consumption is highest, does increased thermal distortion actually matter next to the distortion from the suspension?  The trouble I see with IBs is that their performance depends on how well the baffle wall is constructed to prevent unwanted resonance, energy loss, and excessive vibration transmitted into the building itself.  Using sturdy enough construction, I'm sure these issues can be worked around, but now we're talking about increases in cost that might exceed those incurred going the multiple sealed route.

[maxmercy]

Crowsons are pretty cool too. Got to play with those finally. All of us on concrete should really consider them.

 

More info please....how about a mini-review?

 

JSS

[Bossobass Dave]

Noobs should spend a day in the archives. It's all there. Steve was awesome in that he was tenacious. He dug up everything that could be said about the virtues of a gigantic low tuned ported sub. In the final analysis, it should have been obvious that he continually referred to the fact that the LLT "mimicked a sealed sub above tune".

 

All I have to say is that Paul and I spent a couple of days at Adam's installing and roughly setting up a sealed system. Most of the time was spent listening to scenes from movies. We documented the results.

 

Rather than wade into the debates of which alignment does what, just show me another alignment that can do this 2 hours from delivery:

 

 

There's a -6dB dip centered at 42 Hz. Otherwise, the system is accurate to 7 Hz with very usable output to 4 Hz. Adam can easily be flat to 3 Hz with a new pre/pro, which is definitely in his future because changing technology dictates that it is. There is ZERO harmonic distortion and feel free to point it out if I'm missing something in comparing the digits to the sub's rendition of them at the seats. Each stack is smaller than the typical LLT and a single stack would easily give reference level, as these scenes were played at 10 times reference level.

 

'nuff said.

[Infrasonic]

Yeah but a nice single or pair of LLT's is cheaper for people who really want that SPL/extension, imho. One 18" for ~$200 than four is easier to chew on for a lot of people and those who are new to this stuff would find that more bearable than considering quad or more sealed 15's and 18's. That's just how people think and really there are many other worse choices than a proper LLT.

 

 

More info please....how about a mini-review?

 

JSS

 

Admittedly, I didn't get a whole ton of time on them nor a ton of content. I went over to Sheldon's house (carp) and got to experience it in his prime center seat in the front row on Saturday. I got some John Wick, Enders Game and Metallica's Through the Never all at or near reference and with his whole system on which included the nearfield. That day it was hard to tell which was doing what. But on Sunday, Jonathan (Archaea) and I went back over and hung out for a bit. I had requested to try it out some more but time was limited that day. Ended up playing 'Bass I Love You' on loop pretty much. Asked him to turn all sorts on or off. His nearfield 18 is pretty brutal so I asked to turn it off. Then I asked to turn off all the subs and just leave his JTR 215's only. The Crowson's are on the sub output and he had a 'double bass' on so all that content was still going to the Crowson, thankfully. 

 

To sum it up, this thing is so natural sounding feeling. As I was able to compare, Sheldon would switch back and forth between just nearfield sealed 18" and the Crowson (of which it looked like he had just a single). I had a hard time telling the two apart except that the 18" felt more brutal and the Crowson more smooth. Could be a SPL thing, could be a FR thing. But going between the two it seemed like the Crowson was just 'another subwoofer' which imo was really good. I liked the effect and I would strongly consider them even at their price and/or the idea that they are "not a natural" way of reproducing bass. It felt very natural to me.

 

On the flip side, Archaea and I went to Luke Kamp's house afterwards. He built a purposely flimsy (a bit too flimsy!!) with a single Buttkicker LFE in the center behind the middle seat where I sat. Played a whole bunch of the Scuba Steve demo disk. Jon and I both agreed it was fucking brutal as hell and even prefered EoT opening over d_c's dual Ghorns/single 24" which was "holy crap" intense! The BK is still a bit more mechanical and artificial but it has some merits as well for that 'tactile' sensation.

 

Sooo on the Crowson, it never gave off that kind of feeling and my impression was that it was so natural that it felt like actual subwoofer induced shake. I'd say even Dave would like it but I know he won't out of principle. The rest of us that don't like transducers for the same reason "too artificial/too much pounding" then the Crowson is the answer to your prayers.

[MKtheater]

An 18 inch sub is probably cheaper than buying the crowson so why bother if they feel the same? 

[Infrasonic]

It's silent.

[Bossobass Dave]

First, on the "proper" LLT, it may cost less (depends on the driver and fit and finish... there's a lot more to finish), they are massively huge. The kids may dig that for a while, but it gets old fast unless it's hidden somewhere, which is not likely, IMO. Second... show me the money. SpecLab leaves the bullshit on the table. No one has ever graphed a ported sub playing the scenes we like.

 

Ported, horns, PRs, BPs... all show limited bandwidth and distortion (because a single sub will always struggle, regardless of it's alignment and that's been the argument... that it's cheaper because one sub will do vs multiples of sealed). In the past, people have discounted both of those by saying they just don't matter... to them. Academically, you don't get that pass. The playback is accurate or it is not. Preference is irrelevant, so I avoid the discussions of whether or not the pet rock was a cool thing.

 

I really never gave tactile TDs a second thought because I don't sit on a slab. I just have no need for them. I also believe that comparing a near field blaster sub to tactile TDs on a slab is a bad comparison. You'd have to try the comparison in my room to understand why I'm indifferent or even anti-tactile TD, IMO.

[Infrasonic]

Well duh .. but many of us do not have an HT on suspended floor so, you know. Maybe instead you should come to our house(s) and see what we are on about. Yeah.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We get it, Dave. Sealed subs are the subwoofer 'master race'. I know, that's why I went to mega sealed. We all gotta start somewhere and multiple sealed is not for everyone even given all yours many pages/lifetime worth of explanations why everyone should just do sealed anyway. I get it. But don't make them all out to be useless junk cuz they aren't even if you don't like em.

 

But I don't want to live in a world were everybody has sealed subs anyway. That would be boring.

[chrapladm]

I am noticing a pattern. I am seeing a few different posts that all suggest that a resonant system is the answer.

[Bossobass Dave]

Everyone talks about "multiple sealed" like you need a dozen 18s. I started with a single 12". Along the way, a 2x15" was good enough. Certainly it was better reproduction than the typical 1x12" ported ID sub. Going to the 8x15" Tumults was over kill, and I said so many times. These days it has to be about reference +15dB. Silly. Smoke 'em if ya got 'em, but not necessary.

 

Nick sold some very nice 15s for under a buck fifty. Four of them is $600 and change. Amps are cheap and EQ is <$200. Boxes are nothing. Total for a 4x15" system is <$1500. Less than that is a waste of time.

 

I think Nube built his 4x15" system for $6-700 and he's flat to <5 Hz. And, they don't look like a truck bed.

 

It seems obvious to me that resonant systems are about loud and nothing else. Like James said, "Nothing <15 Hz matters", just what it can hit on the meter. Yeah, let's head back to the 90s and save $1000. Well, that's all cool with me, just don't get in my face with how it's the path to enlightenment, blah.

 

Variety may be the spice of life but Bass is Bass.

 

Re slab: I built a HT on a slab for a client and installed a HT in a basement across the street soon thereafter. Ported in one, sealed in the other. I've been to Brandon's and Adam's. Over the years it's been about 50/50, slab/suspended. None had dildos attached to any of the seats. Just dunno what the fuss is all about. <shrug> Hope that's OK.

 

Actually, Adam's HT is quite violent. I don't listen at those levels but there's no lack of tactile sensation there. And, I would still opt for a platform before nut massagers if it were me and I wanted that last bit of tactile sensation. I agree with you on the 18" headphones.. too much, shut it off.

[SME]

Everyone talks about "multiple sealed" like you need a dozen 18s. I started with a single 12". Along the way, a 2x15" was good enough. Certainly it was better reproduction than the typical 1x12" ported ID sub. Going to the 8x15" Tumults was over kill, and I said so many times. These days it has to be about reference +15dB. Silly. Smoke 'em if ya got 'em, but not necessary.

 

Nick sold some very nice 15s for under a buck fifty. Four of them is $600 and change. Amps are cheap and EQ is <$200. Boxes are nothing. Total for a 4x15" system is <$1500. Less than that is a waste of time.

What rooms sizes are we talking about here?  I specifically qualified that LLTs hit a nice spot for large rooms and low budgets.  Those 8x15" *might* be enough to get me < 5 Hz at reference level in my 9k+ cube space if they are high excursion like the HSTs.  I still need a beefy amp to drive those, like an A14k at a "cheap" $1700.  In small rooms, the economics are indeed much more beneficial.

 

Boxes also aren't "nothing".  Apart from the cost of materials, there's labor.  DIY boxes require wood working skills and time.  Don't forget the opportunity cost due to lost time that could be spent working on something else.

 

It seems obvious to me that resonant systems are about loud and nothing else. Like James said, "Nothing <15 Hz matters", just what it can hit on the meter. Yeah, let's head back to the 90s and save $1000. Well, that's all cool with me, just don't get in my face with how it's the path to enlightenment, blah.

 

And for large commercial and outdoor spaces, it's probably reasonable to compromise on < 15 Hz for bass that's loud enough to actually hear.  Would you really try to argue for using multiple sealed woofers for bass support at an outdoor dance party?  Supposing you can get 103 dB/2m GP at 20 Hz from a single 15, to get 109 dB at 16 m takes no less than 16 woofers and a hell of a lot of power.  With room gain completely lacking, resonant designs start to look quite attractive again.