BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[maxmercy]

Bosso,

 

When Transformers 1 BEQ is put up, you need to do a mic'ed capture.  This is the digital of Megatron Blasting Jazz:

 

If anyone's system can come close to doing this, yours can.  Look at that waveform!

 

 

JSS

[Madaeel]

Yah he's ok now. He had a stroke and it affected his brains ability to tell his legs to move. He feels fine other than that especially since he can eat a regular diet haha. He's at rehab now to force his brain to make the connections again basically. Thanks for asking Dave. Sorry to hear about your own problems. Hope everything is alright.

 

I saw those graphs Paul posted on Expendables and *finally* they made one that had bass to match whats on screen. Jazzy LOVES those movies. Sly is her favorite but she loves all those guys and of course Antonio. It's just old school action with new weapons thrown in. I love em too. Can't wait to watch this one. Gonna buy it for sure. Glad you and Virginia enjoyed relaxing and watching a good flick.

 

Hey I wanna give you a call before you leave. You gonna be home tomorrow or Monday?

[Bossobass Dave]

Bosso,

 

When Transformers 1 BEQ is put up, you need to do a mic'ed capture.  This is the digital of Megatron Blasting Jazz:

 

If anyone's system can come close to doing this, yours can.  Look at that waveform!

 

MBJBEQ.jpg

 

JSS

 

In my experience, T1 has a good bit of ULF already. Here's the scene where Sam & Megan Fox meet the bots out in the street. It's basically their footstomps:

 

 

Can't imagine that EQ'd. Like Ringo Starr used to say when one of the band members proposed something insane, "You first, ya bastard."

[Bossobass Dave]

Yah he's ok now. He had a stroke and it affected his brains ability to tell his legs to move. He feels fine other than that especially since he can eat a regular diet haha. He's at rehab now to force his brain to make the connections again basically. Thanks for asking Dave. Sorry to hear about your own problems. Hope everything is alright.

 

I saw those graphs Paul posted on Expendables and *finally* they made one that had bass to match whats on screen. Jazzy LOVES those movies. Sly is her favorite but she loves all those guys and of course Antonio. It's just old school action with new weapons thrown in. I love em too. Can't wait to watch this one. Gonna buy it for sure. Glad you and Virginia enjoyed relaxing and watching a good flick.

 

Hey I wanna give you a call before you leave. You gonna be home tomorrow or Monday?

 

Yeah, I'll be around. If you miss me, just leave a message.

 

I watched Captain America TWS tonight. The helicarriers being launched (ch 14) and being destroyed (ch 16) was superb.

 

 

CA:TWS is shaping up to be my overall favorite for 2014. Good story, good effects, great soundtrack.

[Madaeel]

Yah I bought that movie and I agree. Top notch. Plus I got it in 3D.

 

I'll try you tomorrow evening.

 

[Madaeel]

Bosso,

 

When Transformers 1 BEQ is put up, you need to do a mic'ed capture.  This is the digital of Megatron Blasting Jazz:

 

If anyone's system can come close to doing this, yours can.  Look at that waveform!

 

MBJBEQ.jpg

 

JSS

I tried that scene over and over and turned it up little by little. I don't know for sure since my mic can't pick it up but I swear I can feel that. It's subtle but it's there. Maybe the Oppo will help with that.

[maxmercy]

It is a powerful effect in stock form.  The BEQ really just addresses the 5-27Hz 'hole' in the LFE response, and the very gentle rolloff of the LCRS.  It adds about 5dB to that scene only below 3Hz.  I can definitely tell that blast is different, and when you look at the drivers move, it definitely IS.  I'll finish up the TF series BEQ stuff and post it up next weekend.

 

JSS

[Bossobass Dave]

I ran SL on that scene, mic'd at the seat. Here's what I got.

 

 

Comparing my screen cap vs yours, I have to squeeze/stretch to accommodate the difference in the time domain of our settings, but the curious thing is that I get a big hit at 4-5 Hz that I don't see in your version.

 

As I said, below 4 Hz I'm rolling off (sig chain and measurement rig) and I have no cal file in line for SL, so it's impossible to see what I really get at the seats <3 Hz.

[Bossobass Dave]

Adam and I talked on the phone over the weekend and he mentioned the reaction audio 18" version sub. In that thread, he mentioned that Brian chimed in to say that the Powersoft K-10 that Josh uses for testing all DIY subs has less output than his SP1-4000 plate amp.

 

Josh then popped in to mention that the K-10 is a 2 channel amp, but he failed to mention that the 2 channels can be bridged to a rated 12,000W.

 

Since all of the Speakerpower amps are full bridged configuration, it's disingenuous to compare them to a single 1/2 bridge channel of a 2 channel amplifier.

 

I'm sure it's a spiffy plate amp if that's your cup of tea, but the K-10 bridged (call it the K-10-1) dwarfs it.

 

I also have to mention that we're discussing subwoofers here and, AFAIK, there is no frequency response data posted for the SP stuff and, quite frankly, a test at 50 Hz is irrelevant.

 

I was at Brandon's G2G where the rack mount 8000 shut down while trying to drive Nick's 24" driver to it's limits. That test was confined to wiring each channel of the SP amp to each coil of the 24" driver at a nominal 2 ohms because each channel of the SP amp is already in full bridge config so you can't bridge the 2 channels. In reality, dynamic soundtrack sends peaks to <3 Hz at below 2 ohms, demanding huge amounts of current. That's 4 octaves below the 50 Hz Brian used to test amps into a perfect dummy load with steady state input.

 

As I said at the G2G, if we had brought an A-14K and bridged it into the driver's coils in series to a 4 ohm nominal load the driver would have been stopped in Mexico for speeding.

 

I also have to chime in on the claims of 74 mm P2P throw of the RA 18" driver (or any driver for that matter). That's a cited number for Xmech*2 and has absolutely nothing to do with actual sub performance.

 

In fact, as all of Josh's tests reveal no driver has ever been able to reach Xmax at 10 Hz with a passing CEA2010 result, let alone Xmech.

 

A driver's maximum clean throw is only relevant <20 Hz and the test results using a tone burst or sine sweep (and common sense) show that all of the P2P numbers cited by various manufacturers over the years are bullshit. If it's possible to drive the 18" RA driver to 74 mm P2P throw during testing, I sure would like to see the results of that exercise.

 

The RA 15" sealed sub wasn't able to post a passing number at 10 Hz, so the throw of the driver means nothing, for one example.

 

Not singling out Jeremy, he seems like a nice fellow and many manufacturers have used this "extremely long throw driver" spec, just trying to clarify that displacement is king, but you have to qualify the term relative to P2P numbers. You can't just make them up.

[MKtheater]

You just don't know how this data relates to actual real world use until you start testing different drivers in your own room.  I have always felt my Dual DTS-10's offered something my sealed systems could not until I tried the eD 13AV's and they started to show me the brute low end the DTS-10's had.  Just look at the data for the DTS-10's, huge passing output!  So when I finally just decided to put in well tested and best bang for buck Stereo Integrity 18's I just ordered 12 to make up any spl losses from higher x-max drivers.  The differences are not subtle, the passing test shows them to have the most output at 10hz I have owned and the amount of wall flex and shake is insane.  My Fi IB drivers were too choked to really let them shine and I was not changing my wall.  I know people say all the time look at the x-max but until it gets tested we won't know for sure just how much is actually usable and not all distortion.  I also believe the boxes should be ideal per driver and some of these boxes are much too small like in the case of the XXX.  I won't believe the RA subs until they get measured.  The sealed 15 is OK but seems to have taken over where the empire and A7s450 left off with actual less output.  I know it is a single 15 and comes very close to the eD 18 which was a what x-max driver? I had 8 of them and they did well but I changed to the dual DTS-10's for a reason.  My current system would squash that system. 

[maxmercy]

I ran SL on that scene, mic'd at the seat. Here's what I got.

 

 

Comparing my screen cap vs yours, I have to squeeze/stretch to accommodate the difference in the time domain of our settings, but the curious thing is that I get a big hit at 4-5 Hz that I don't see in your version.

 

As I said, below 4 Hz I'm rolling off (sig chain and measurement rig) and I have no cal file in line for SL, so it's impossible to see what I really get at the seats <3 Hz.

 

Ist that still with the Nutall windows?  I know that with TF1 BEQ, it is the most I have ever seen my drivers move in an 'impulse' effect that wasn't a 'droning-type' effect.  It is quite powerful.  Were you able to figure out if your Oppo will play well with the nanoAVR?

 

JSS

[MKtheater]

If the nanoavr can play with the oppo and use the oppo analog outs then that will be my next pre/pro. 

[MKtheater]

I will throw in TF1 rebass'd later and see what happens.

[Madaeel]

I ran SL on that scene, mic'd at the seat. Here's what I got.

 

 

Comparing my screen cap vs yours, I have to squeeze/stretch to accommodate the difference in the time domain of our settings, but the curious thing is that I get a big hit at 4-5 Hz that I don't see in your version.

 

As I said, below 4 Hz I'm rolling off (sig chain and measurement rig) and I have no cal file in line for SL, so it's impossible to see what I really get at the seats <3 Hz.

You feel anything on that scene? If anyone could it would definitely be you.

 

Max you feel anything on that scene? James?

[MKtheater]

I will try after tennis.

[Bossobass Dave]

Watched Maleficent last night. Some good scenes. Mixed by Gary Rizzo (Oblivion, Tron, etc...) and well done. The level is down. These caps are mic'd at the seats at reference with the sub out bumped +6dB hot:

 

Chapter 3, starting at "Bring me her head."

 

 

Chapter 3 continued...

 

 

Chapter 16, needle prick and fall to the floor:

 

[Madaeel]

Damn! I saw this in the theater(first time in 1-2 years) and while it wasn't what I was expecting I still enjoyed it. That's pretty good for low end. I heard the picture was pretty good on the Blu ray as well. Might have to to watch this at home...

[maxmercy]

You feel anything on that scene? If anyone could it would definitely be you.

 

Max you feel anything on that scene? James?

 

I do.  Even in the regular version, you know that blast is different from the rest.  With BEQ, it is near-scary.  Cone movement is significant, and pressurization is too.

 

JSS

[Madaeel]

Yah because there's almost nothing else except that 1hz hit right? I'm curious to feel the difference once I get an oppo or any pre/pro with less roll-off. You have 8 15's too right?

[Bossobass Dave]

I feel every effect that's pink or higher at 5 Hz. I always liked TF1 the best in the series for low end effects. You just have to crank it to get the true effect. For years it was the only flick I ran hot subs with.

[Bossobass Dave]

Damn! I saw this in the theater(first time in 1-2 years) and while it wasn't what I was expecting I still enjoyed it. That's pretty good for low end. I heard the picture was pretty good on the Blu ray as well. Might have to to watch this at home...

 

Yeah, check out that 1st graph, down to <3 Hz, dark red. It's low.

[maxmercy]

Yah because there's almost nothing else except that 1hz hit right? I'm curious to feel the difference once I get an oppo or any pre/pro with less roll-off. You have 8 15's too right?

 

It has significant power all the way up to to ~8Hz (yellow), and is as broadband a blast as any, with content all the way from >100Hz down to the lowest octaves.  I run Eight 15s, but they are much more excursion limited than any of Bosso's offerings, with only 14mm geometric Xmax, and only about 18-20mm usable stroke one way.  Main reason I went with them is that I aIready owned three of them.  I run usually at -10dBRef, with -7dBRef if I want, no clipping, no clanking with BEQ content, but if I push further, things get too close for comfort with 7.1 0dBFS tonebursts, so I don;t push, and know I am always getting a clean presentation.  Per ATSC standards, my room size dictates that reference is 78dBC.  Unfortunately, there are no definitive standards for film mixing for the home.  Thomlinson Holman stated on AVS that they usually mix DVDs/BDs at 81dBC, but that it is not a hard and fast rule.  I wish every BD came with a 'theatrical mix' as well as the 'home mix', so that those of us with more capable systems could enjoy the greater dynamic range the theatrical mixes offer.  Back when DVDs were the rage, most films on DVD were just given the theatrical mixes, but then people started to complain that they couldn't hear dialogue, or that explosions were too loud.....

 

For a given SPL level, my subs move about the same amount at 3Hz as they do at 5Hz and 8Hz.  They move slightly less at 1.5Hz, but that is due to signal chain.  The effect above has SIGNIFICANT cone movement, you can see how the cone should move by looking at the trace on the right hand side of the graph.  

 

The stock version off the BD is only 5dB lower in amplitude.  TF1 required very little BEQ, and Bosso is right, it packs more ULF punch than any of the others in the series (Except TF2 BEQ).  TF2 BEQ is WOTW/TIH/BattleLA good, with better dynamics than both TIH and WOTW.  It is as good a brainless visual/sonic feast as anything else out there.   

 

JSS

[Madaeel]

I feel every effect that's pink or higher at 5 Hz. I always liked TF1 the best in the series for low end effects. You just have to crank it to get the true effect. For years it was the only flick I ran hot subs with.

Hmmm. That's pretty much the same for my room. Though that's for almost all frequencies. I was running hot of course when I ran it but I'm sure my roll-off was off-setting it anyway.

Yeah, check out that 1st graph, down to <3 Hz, dark red. It's low.

That's a nasty scene. Funny thing is I can't remember anything about the movie haha.

 

It has significant power all the way up to to ~8Hz (yellow), and is as broadband a blast as any, with content all the way from >100Hz down to the lowest octaves.  I run Eight 15s, but they are much more excursion limited than any of Bosso's offerings, with only 14mm geometric Xmax, and only about 18-20mm usable stroke one way.  Main reason I went with them is that I aIready owned three of them.  I run usually at -10dBRef, with -7dBRef if I want, no clipping, no clanking with BEQ content, but if I push further, things get too close for comfort with 7.1 0dBFS tonebursts, so I don;t push, and know I am always getting a clean presentation.  Per ATSC standards, my room size dictates that reference is 78dBC.  Unfortunately, there are no definitive standards for film mixing for the home.  Thomlinson Holman stated on AVS that they usually mix DVDs/BDs at 81dBC, but that it is not a hard and fast rule.  I wish every BD came with a 'theatrical mix' as well as the 'home mix', so that those of us with more capable systems could enjoy the greater dynamic range the theatrical mixes offer.  Back when DVDs were the rage, most films on DVD were just given the theatrical mixes, but then people started to complain that they couldn't hear dialogue, or that explosions were too loud.....

 

For a given SPL level, my subs move about the same amount at 3Hz as they do at 5Hz and 8Hz.  They move slightly less at 1.5Hz, but that is due to signal chain.  The effect above has SIGNIFICANT cone movement, you can see how the cone should move by looking at the trace on the right hand side of the graph.  

 

The stock version off the BD is only 5dB lower in amplitude.  TF1 required very little BEQ, and Bosso is right, it packs more ULF punch than any of the others in the series (Except TF2 BEQ).  TF2 BEQ is WOTW/TIH/BattleLA good, with better dynamics than both TIH and WOTW.  It is as good a brainless visual/sonic feast as anything else out there.   

 

JSS

Yah I guess I should've said the effect is the loudest at that frequency, which is rare. Nothing else to mask it really.

 

That's impressive you can reproduce that content with 8 15's that only have 20mm of Xmax. I'm gussing your room isn't that big? Around 2500cuft or less? After hearing the Minka Blackbird upstairs I know a system 2 would definitely destroy my house...and my neighbors and they have a little more throw.

 

I've been talking to Dave about "reference" lately. I used the tones in my pos(Sherbourn) to set all speakers to 75db. Then I used the Disney Disc with it's 85db tones and going by the calibration from the test tones off my pos, I was a couple db off on each channel. I'm curious how many receivers and pre/pros are really at "reference" at -0MV. Between that and the discs themselves being recorded hot it's hard to get a consistent level of listening. I do know whenever I watch a movie in DD I can almost always watch at reference...whatever the hell that is.

[maxmercy]

Whenever I get to completing the 7.1 Audio test disc, it will have PN signals to properly set reference for both LCRS and LFE, as I best understand the concept.

 

JSS

[Shredhead]

Whenever I get to completing the 7.1 Audio test disc, it will have PN signals to properly set reference for both LCRS and LFE, as I best understand the concept.

 

JSS

Max, what program do you use to author (or whatever it's called) the dvd so that you can burn it in surround?  You use Audacity to mix with?