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Madaeel

BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

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Well all those have tons above 30hz so they're perfect candidates. I own all of those too so that'd be pretty cool to watch them with ULF in em. Godzilla especially since that shoulda definitely had single digit stomps in it. If freaking Pompeii can have hoofbeats with ULF then a 300ft tall monster prolly should too. :wacko: Damn sound engineers.

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Just wait until you try Tron:Legacy BEQ....new ballgame.  It actually didn't get a whole lot of correction, only to the LFE mainly.  It was the only channel with a significant rolloff, and the only channel left unclipped.

 

JSS

Wuuuuuut??  Tron needs *more* bass?! :blink::D

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Some scenes benefit more than others, but the LFE was rolled off. T:L had lots of the ULF encoded in the LCRS, which is why the mix clips often there.  LFE channel was the only one unclipped.

 

JSS

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Idk what "backing down the level to reference" means so I'll have to google that. :lol:

 

That excursion is awesome! Man those drivers have some throw. That also reminds me to pop Tron back in and see what that scene can do with subs that have no leaks haha.

 

It of course came while I was at work so tomorrow it'll happen. I can't wait to be able to play with the Minka. She's jsut sitting there looking pretty and bored. She needs to stretch her legs a bit. Btw idk if I told you but Jazzy loves that you dubbed it the Minka. :)

Speclab graphs tomorrow.

You'll enjoy it thoroughly. The entering grid scene is insane, as well as the ships fly over scene less than a minute after that. I actually feel the ships cross over the couch on that one. It is awesome.

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Yah that's actually my favorite scene since it's in 7.1 and that fly over was done perfect. Plus turned up it'll surprise you.

 

So I got my new Emo receiver hooked up aaannnnnd I got the same problem which means it's in my wiring which is in the walls.........WTF??!!!! :angry: :angry: Oh yah and the Emo def has handshake issues. It wouldn't even pass the audio from the PS3. So no Speclab gaphs, no REW, hell no Minka notes. This shit makes me wanna live in a cardboard box where no electronics reside.

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Bosso,

 

Have you sold any of your modified/upgraded amplifiers yet?

What is the lead time on such?  What's the warranty?  What's the life expectancy?  Can it run on 240volt? It can be bridged right?

 

I've got a set of eight Dayton Audio Ultimax UM18-22 drivers (dual 2 ohm voice coil) in sealed 21" cabinets that I'm considering either powering by four iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers, or one beefy amp for the front six and probably an iNuke DSP 6000 for the two nearfield.

 

Currently I only have two iNuke DSP 6000 amps powering all eight subs. I'm running the iNuke DSP channels by generic specs at 2ohm per channel, with two subs per channel (which is out of spec for the iNuke 6000 amps) --- but I'm saved by the impedance curve on the UM18-22 - because only below about 8hz do they hit drop to that 4 ohm spec --- above 8hz they are more like a six ohm driver than a four ohm --- so the iNuke's generally work quite well with two drivers loaded per channel ---- unless they try to reproduce very low ULF content - like BHD Irene scene - at which point they power cycle even at low volumes.  At my typical movie watching volume, outside of scenes like BHD - this isn't ever a problem, at reference level demos it sometimes is.  I tried the 10z HPF idea that LDTD02 provided at avsforum and that works, but seems like a bit of a hack compared to just mating my eight subs to the proper amps.

 

So my long term fix to this little inadequacy is to either buy two more iNuke DSP 6000 units and do one 1 sub per channel (which would probably be completely fine and inexpensive (but having to make modifications to four different DSP by individual USB connections kind of stinks) - or go a different route.  Your amp upgrade is interesting to me.  I've been fearful of the various clone options because I'm not an engineer and don't know how to fix them if they fail, but one that you've upgraded and gone over with a fine tooth comb seems more lucrative.  At this stage I'm just asking questions.

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So I got my new Emo receiver hooked up aaannnnnd I got the same problem which means it's in my wiring which is in the walls.........WTF??!!!! :angry: :angry: Oh yah and the Emo def has handshake issues. It wouldn't even pass the audio from the PS3. So no Speclab gaphs, no REW, hell no Minka notes. This shit makes me wanna live in a cardboard box where no electronics reside.

 

Sadly, Emo is famous for handshake problems.  I have a Sherbourn receiver (which Emo owns) that has the exact same problem.  It gets so bad that sometimes I actually have to switch inputs to solve the sync issues.  What's worse is their support is horrible, which just adds salt to the wound.

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I've got a set of eight Dayton Audio Ultimax UM18-22 drivers (dual 2 ohm voice coil) in sealed 21" cabinets that I'm considering either powering by four iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers, or one beefy amp for the front six and probably an iNuke DSP 6000 for the two nearfield.

 

Just 8 Jonathan?  Austin is on the other side of the globe snicker at you... :)

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Sadly, Emo is famous for handshake problems.  I have a Sherbourn receiver (which Emo owns) that has the exact same problem.  It gets so bad that sometimes I actually have to switch inputs to solve the sync issues.  What's worse is their support is horrible, which just adds salt to the wound.

Yah and I knew that going in but some people don't have any problems with them so I figured I'd try it. Plus it does 60w per channel clean which most $1k receivers can't do. What pissed me off was it wasn't even my Pioneer receiver at fault. Its the damn speaker or wiring. Just another pita to deal with.

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Yah that's actually my favorite scene since it's in 7.1 and that fly over was done perfect. Plus turned up it'll surprise you.

 

So I got my new Emo receiver hooked up aaannnnnd I got the same problem which means it's in my wiring which is in the walls.........WTF??!!!! :angry: :angry: Oh yah and the Emo def has handshake issues. It wouldn't even pass the audio from the PS3. So no Speclab gaphs, no REW, hell no Minka notes. This shit makes me wanna live in a cardboard box where no electronics reside.

I will never give Emotiva another dollar. I got the Sherbourn PT-7030 when they went on sale, and now I understand why. Turn-on and turn off violent thump, bad HDMI handshake issues, the audio wouldn't be recognized or come on for 3-4 secs after video started, horrible crossover and PEQ setup, bad remote....only thing going for it was a VERY quiet noise floor and 7.2 XLR outs. It also could not handle a full 7.1 bass managed signal to the SW out without clipping. And no future firmware updates. Total piece of trash marketed as 'high end' to the ignorant masses, but with great potential had they actually DEVELOPED the product.

 

So frustrating due to the great low noise floor.....

 

JSS

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I will never give Emotiva another dollar. I got the Sherbourn PT-7030 when they went on sale, and now I understand why. Turn-on and turn off violent thump, bad HDMI handshake issues, the audio wouldn't be recognized or come on for 3-4 secs after video started, horrible crossover and PEQ setup, bad remote....only thing going for it was a VERY quiet noise floor and 7.2 XLR outs. It also could not handle a full 7.1 bass managed signal to the SW out without clipping. And no future firmware updates. Total piece of trash marketed as 'high end' to the ignorant masses, but with great potential had they actually DEVELOPED the product.

 

So frustrating due to the great low noise floor.....

 

JSS

 

Apparently I'm not the only one whose had issues.  Shame too, because both Emo and Sherbourn had solid reputations.  At one point, anyway.  Now?  Not so much...

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I will never give Emotiva another dollar. I got the Sherbourn PT-7030 when they went on sale, and now I understand why. Turn-on and turn off violent thump, bad HDMI handshake issues, the audio wouldn't be recognized or come on for 3-4 secs after video started, horrible crossover and PEQ setup, bad remote....only thing going for it was a VERY quiet noise floor and 7.2 XLR outs. It also could not handle a full 7.1 bass managed signal to the SW out without clipping. And no future firmware updates. Total piece of trash marketed as 'high end' to the ignorant masses, but with great potential had they actually DEVELOPED the product.

 

So frustrating due to the great low noise floor.....

 

JSS

Smh. I have this in the basement and yes it's a pos. I have the thump, and some handshake issues, but for the most part the HDMI works fine. The remote looks like a $10 Radioshack unit. My $500 Pioneer receiver remote looks gaudy next to it. I also bought the 7 channel amp and it too was a pos. It had the loudest hum ever, and after I replaced it with an Emo XPA-5 the hum was gone. They tried to say it was a ground loop hum but using another one of their products helped prove they were wrong. I couldn't believe the prices when I bought them either, and like you afterward I was like "ooohhh because they're giant pieces of shit".

 

I want the Oppo but can't justify buying another piece of gear right now. My Emo amps are great but their pre/pros and receiver are garbage and I can't believe I even took that chance. I was hoping I'd be a lucky one with no hiccups. :mellow: I'm pretty dumb sometimes.

 

Next year I'll upgrade and hopefully Oppo will come out with a new player with more HDMI ins.

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The sherbourn 7020 I had worked great and much better than the newer 8100 receiver from Sherbourn. I am using a Yamaha 830 for a processor right now and it is much better than most I have owned.

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I was looking at the PT7030 back then. I held off and when I got the 105 and tried it as a pre, that stopped my search for a new processor.

 

The OPPO 105 has a global crossover vs separate points for mains, CC, etc., and it doesn't have any kind of manual or auto EQ. It has level and distance (delay) settings for 7.1 and it has a wide selection of global crossover points. It decodes, does that limited processing and converts to analog to 7.1 out jacks.

 

That was the bottom line for me. The conversion to analog. The 105's Sabre ESS 32 ES9018 DACS make an audible difference in channel separation, steering and clarity. It was a remarkable difference over the Onk receiver-as-pre.

 

Then there is the roll off difference:

 

2eae00cb918ceccc7b4a78ace9914cc4.jpg

 

That translated to +6dB at 3 Hz at the seats simply by eliminating a signal chain bank of capacitors, and the Onk was no slouch in that regard, being -3dB at 3 or 4 Hz. Many receivers and processors add lots more to the roll off before the subwoofer amplifier seals the deal.

 

Since my Phase Linear 4000 preamp and 400 amp in the 70s, I've set my system flat. As a musician, I was well aware of the work and cash that had to go towards mixing the parts in the studio and mastering the result. So, it always amused and sometimes irked me to watch everyone go at their 31 band graphic EQ to "fix" the mix.

 

Instead of researching acquiring and testing higher quality hardware, they added a GEQ and tried to compensate that way. As a result, over the years, most people acquired a taste for grossly distorted playback to the point where they believe it's supposed to sound that way.

 

IOW, I've never been into remixing a mix after the fact. I don't believe it's possible to take a mastered product and re-master it after the fact without consequences like clipping and increased noise floor.

 

If you look, for example, at T:L remix and transfer that onto the difference in sig chain roll off in my rig vs most anyone else's, I already in effect have the remix without having to do one.

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Actually Bosso what you have is the original mix.  Most people who use the BEQ will end up having the original mix since they have more rolloff to begin with.  If that makes sense. 

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Actually Bosso what you have is the original mix.  Most people who use the BEQ will end up having the original mix since they have more rolloff to begin with.  If that makes sense. 

 

True, except for a much higher noise floor. Most subs come with an EQ curve these days and I, for example, add +10dB of L/T boost to mate my subs to my room gain, as others do as well. Of course, if you attenuate the low end and then boost that attenuation after the fact, you raise the noise floor, which Dolby has always done by adding +10dB to the LFE channel to begin with.

 

Earlier in the thread, I just finished showing the exponential requirement for excursion when boosting below 10 Hz. If you don't know the signal chain response of your system and you pop in a disc that has +6dB of boost <10 Hz, it may not turn out so well.

 

It would be great if those with REW would do a simple loopback of their AVR, PEQ, Pre/Pro, amplifiers, etc. and post them is a thread dedicated to signal chain loopback measurements. It's so easy to do, I wonder why everyone doesn't do it. REW is free and you don't need a mic or anything else to do the loopback.

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It would be great if those with REW would do a simple loopback of their AVR, PEQ, Pre/Pro, amplifiers, etc. and post them is a thread dedicated to signal chain loopback measurements. It's so easy to do, I wonder why everyone doesn't do it. REW is free and you don't need a mic or anything else to do the loopback.

I started http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/322-signal-chain-loopback-measurements/?p=5078 to kick things off 

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I agree Bosso.  Another thing I have noticed trying to get flatter, lower, is that one really does not need to run the bass hot because when you are truly flat, it is so much more powerful than not.  I can run Lone survivor 10 dBs hot with no problems but if I boost the low end to be flat to 4hz, 3 dBs hot will trip the breaker! 

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Well it's definitely the speaker. I'm only getting 1.6ohms from it where all the others are around 6 which apparently is typical of a speaker with an 8 ohm rating. So tomorrow I'll take it outta the wall and see if I can see what's the problem. If not I'll order another one.

 

Now I wanna do a loopback on my Pioneer receiver. Curious of it's roll-off...

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True, except for a much higher noise floor. Most subs come with an EQ curve these days and I, for example, add +10dB of L/T boost to mate my subs to my room gain, as others do as well. Of course, if you attenuate the low end and then boost that attenuation after the fact, you raise the noise floor, which Dolby has always done by adding +10dB to the LFE channel to begin with.

 

Earlier in the thread, I just finished showing the exponential requirement for excursion when boosting below 10 Hz. If you don't know the signal chain response of your system and you pop in a disc that has +6dB of boost <10 Hz, it may not turn out so well.

 

It would be great if those with REW would do a simple loopback of their AVR, PEQ, Pre/Pro, amplifiers, etc. and post them is a thread dedicated to signal chain loopback measurements. It's so easy to do, I wonder why everyone doesn't do it. REW is free and you don't need a mic or anything else to do the loopback.

 

I will do my whole chain loopback when I get time...it will prob not look as good as those posted.

 

With nanoAVR, all of the signal processing is in the digital realm, with 24-bit resolution, before a single DAC/ADC wrecks the SNR.  That's 144dB of dynamic range preserved after processing.  With 0dBFS set to produce either 105dB or 115dB depending on the channel, with the paltry 7dB I take off the track to give myself headroom to get back all the ULF I can without taking away midbass, I am WAY above nearly anyone's room's noise floor still.  If you can really tell the difference between a 3dB and 10dB noise on a soundtrack that averages over 90dB, with your projector/amps/HVAC/massage chair going, you have far better ears than mine.  I introduce trivial amounts of noise into the system with BEQ, and only what was already present in the recording, unless lots of ULF noise is present.  Then I do actually use highpass filters in addition to my correction (BLASPHEMY, I know).

 

But you are correct, you get to hear more ULF with your flat signal chain than most anyone else does (I'd venture ANYONE else).  But a lot of what BEQ gets back is between 10-25Hz, where most folks have zero problems with their signal chains, and it is readily noticeable, despite what their systems may be doing below 5-7Hz.

 

Some films improve a great deal.  I had EQ'ed Tron:Legacy several times before I liked it, but it is pretty damned good in the bass department to begin with, as its LCRS channels are nearly flat to DC to begin with, if you can ignore the clipping/hard limiting.  The first try at BEQ had lots more <10Hz, but to get it, I had to take around 2dB away from 30-100Hz, which sapped all of the 'slam' out of the track.  I finally decided on leaving the slam in place, and getting back whatever I could from the rest of the track.  Just like everything else, BEQ is a compromise, and my solutions are only a starting point for people....they can modify the curves as they see fit (most already do, with house curves and such).  The films that have improved the most are the ones that had horrible filters (Godzilla, Pacific Rim, Avengers, etc).  They are new experiences.  The ones that become reference material are the ones that had just a little rolloff to begin with, and were produced very well without clipping (Transformers 2).  It is the best BEQ film I have ever done so far (with Pacific Rim and Godzilla right after it), with Pressurizing ULF, Shudder, Rumble, SLAM.  It has it all.  PacRim and Godzilla are not titans of ULF after BEQ, but they are whole new experiences, and they fall not into the 'best' category, but definitely 'most improved'...

 

JSS

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Well it is the wiring in the wall so till I can run some wire through the molding to the surround I just disconnected the left surround. Unfortunately my dad has been in the hospital for two weeks now so between that and working 12 hrs a day I haven't had any time to measure anything, but today I had a couple minutes and popped in Star Trek and this is what the BB Minka did in my living room. Sorry it took so long Dave. I should have some more this weekend. :)

 

 

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Hey Adam,

 

Looks good but sad to hear your in-wall wiring is the culprit stopping you from total listening upstairs.

 

Wait... aren't you supposed to hook it up and get the hell out of there?

 

I sincerely hope your dad is doing OK. I've been sorting out some health issues myself over the past few weeks.

 

Gettin' ready to head out of the country for a bit in December. In the meanwhile, Virginia & I watched EXP III a couple of nights ago a yeah, this thing has some broo-tal low end. Thanks to Shred for the SL caps posted in the content forum.

 

I just mic'd a scene for comparison from chapter 14. Those tanks are powerful stuff!

 

583787ac68ab071462df21b50bd8a2c8.gif

 

Freakin' awesome. The Raptors aren't quite getting to 2 Hz, but the 13-35 Hz brunt in this scene is enough to break most subs backs at reference +4dB. We loved the soundtrack and Virginia loves the old guys kickin' butt. She's a big fan of all 3 in the series and she thought Antonio was the best. She went from laughing at the jokes to grabbing my arm when the low stuff hit like the tanks were real and shooting at us. :lol:

 

Great fun. We enjoyed the time off and this movie was icing on the cake. :)

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