BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[Bossobass Dave]

I was using Goo-Gall to find a discussion from one of the forums a long time ago and in the process found some great stuff from people in forums in the US and different countries around the world.

 

Some of my favorites (as quoted in US and goo-gall translate quoted in foreign countries):

 

Bossobass is "the biggest 3 Hz freak". (Germany)

 

Bossobass "massive artillery with big guns". (China)

 

"Bossobass, the frequency response Nazi". (USA)

 

"This area below the subcontra octave may well have adverse effects in internal organs" (Denmark)

 

"Interesting site of an American colleague (link to bossobass.com)". (Switzerland)

 

"bossobass's system has no merit. He is fooling himself that all that DSP and EQ crap approximates what an IB achieves through proper enclosure design." "His system is EQ'd to death and runs on its own nuclear power station but it measures flat to under 10Hz." (Good Ole USA)

 

Yep, the freak Nazi Swiss colleague who measures watts by the ton, took 10 years to build a nuclear power plant, has damaged internal organs after shooting big guns through his massive artillery.

 

My new sig^^ 

[vxds11]

Freakin' classic..

[MemX]

Minka feedback is awesome. Waiting...

 

As something I've wanted to do for a long time, Paul and I put 100' of cable on the mic and took it to different rooms around the house while playing scenes.

 

Unfortunately, with that much cable, the rig needs a buffer circuit and we weren't gonna go to all that trouble, so we just adjusted the signal level way down below the wacky noise floor and then bumped it back up in SpecLab.

 

When we took the mic to the hallway and closed the door (which is where we made the vid of the door knob), here's what the result was:

 

 

The 6 Hz floor resonance is lowered and, as one might expect, the top end is filtered by the closed door, but the brunt of 10-50 Hz is pounding the snot outta the door.

 

The 10 Hz hit from the Elysium scene registered in the breakfast room down stairs, moving the floor, as my wife said while she was eating and we were carrying on over the weekend. I thought she was embellishing, but measurements don't lie.

I can't see the graphs here at work so will have to check back later once I'm home, but all the neighbours were out this morning so I re-ran my Tyga test track again @ -5.5 MV, subs +13dB (Audyssey has them calibrated at -13dB on the SW channel so I just bumped it back up to 0.0), and then walked out the flat, locked the front door, and walked down the stairs to see how loud it was in the hallway. 

 

The alcove I have my subs in is over the hallway below, so it does travel through what I presume is a wooden joist floor wth foam insulation and concrete top skim more than I like at usual listening levels (I didn't manage to sort out a thick granite/marble slab to sit underneath the boxes and over the entire area the alcove is over, and they're too big and heavy to move again so it will have to do lol) but this was ridiculous...  Despite being locked tight shut (and, I think, solid wood) the unsecured top and bottom of the front door was still vibrating like it was trying to come out of its frame!  Everyone else's front doors were rattling, as were various bits of internal fittings, so I don't think the granite slab was really ever going to make much of a difference...  LOL  I had to hold the door with my foot against it to stop it rattling to death, and still mad amounts of bass remained!

 

I can only imagine how mad the Raptor system is running at Reference with +10dB subs boost!!    

[Madaeel]

One word: Insane.

 

I have no fliter engaged. Only thing stopping them now from being flat to 3hz at ref is the roll-off in my pos pre/pro. If I get that Oppo then I could still do ref around 5-10db hot.....again flat to 3hz.

 

Dave's room was silly when the ULF hit. There's no pressure whatsoever down low in his room. It just literally wobbles the chairs like they're wicker. When I got home I played the same scenes we played in his room and I get the same effect just obviously not as pronounced since my floor isn't shaking like jello. Like I said in my other post Dave house a curve down low though and mine rolls off so I'm sure when I get that Oppo I will be close to getting the same effect just from my couch shaking.

 

When I played WotW at ref with the subs 15db hot it's equally insane in my room. Oh yah and I still wasn't at max.  Dave couldn't believe I ran it that hot but it handled it with no problems. It felt like the entire couch was lined with buttkickers. Basically any frequency above 10hz in my room feels ridiculous at any LP. I just need a little more boost down low to get the effect Dave does.

 

Damn frequency reasponse Nazi that he is.

[Madaeel]

Btw the Minka is freaking amazing in the living room. I found the source of the problem with my receiver: left surround channel. Something internally is causing it to short so Dave told me not to turn it up till I get my new one, but I did run TIH and Pompeii at -5 from ref and with no filter it took it like a champ. IOW it's a beast. Jazzy is in love and told me to get outta her room haha. I'll get some Speclab graphs and REW sweeps up hopefully this weekend or beginning of next week.

[Bossobass Dave]

I just watched Earth To Echo. Yeah, it's filtered, but this is just one scene and the whole effect didn't fit the screen... it is relentless.

 

I had the subs at +7dB  for a weak sauce level flick and forgot to set it back to flat. BALLS! I had to jump on the remote to back the MVL down because I feared structural problems, especially with the windows behind the monitor and my innards. This SpecLab cap is with the subs backed down to +2dB hot:

 

 

Looks to be filtered at around 15 Hz with a tad of filtered ULF below that by the end of the scene. Man, it kicks butt. Look at the waveform graph... maxed out and relentless.

 

Moments like THIS is why I build subs.

 

Oh yeah, check out the twin sine sweeps buried in there. They start at 35 Hz and 40 Hz and sweep up slowly (for over 20 seconds!) to 40 Hz and 45 Hz. Excellent sound design, this one is. Shake, Rattle and ROLL!

[Shredhead]

!!!

[MKtheater]

I just watched 9 for the first time, my new short go to movie! Great picture and the sound is one of the best ever!

[MemX]

Looks like Earth to Echo needs to go into the longest bass scenes thread

 

Glad to see another fan of '9' as well!

[MemX]

One word: Insane.

 

I have no fliter engaged. Only thing stopping them now from being flat to 3hz at ref is the roll-off in my pos pre/pro. If I get that Oppo then I could still do ref around 5-10db hot.....again flat to 3hz.

 

Dave's room was silly when the ULF hit. There's no pressure whatsoever down low in his room. It just literally wobbles the chairs like they're wicker. When I got home I played the same scenes we played in his room and I get the same effect just obviously not as pronounced since my floor isn't shaking like jello. Like I said in my other post Dave house a curve down low though and mine rolls off so I'm sure when I get that Oppo I will be close to getting the same effect just from my couch shaking.

 

When I played WotW at ref with the subs 15db hot it's equally insane in my room. Oh yah and I still wasn't at max.  Dave couldn't believe I ran it that hot but it handled it with no problems. It felt like the entire couch was lined with buttkickers. Basically any frequency above 10hz in my room feels ridiculous at any LP. I just need a little more boost down low to get the effect Dave does.

 

Damn frequency reasponse Nazi that he is.

 

WotW @ Reference +15dB hot on the bass?

 

You, sir, are officially nuts

 

I would be scared for the subs!!  And for my room!

 

[Shredhead]

WotW @ Reference +15dB hot on the bass?

 

You, sir, are officially nuts

 

I would be scared for the subs!!  And for my room!

 

Me too.  Probably not a good idea to attempt that with a flat signal chain.  WotW is still the king of ULF transients and sends major voltage levels out of your AVR compared to other movies.  The SEQSS then boosts that ULF by over 3 times with no filter engaged and by the time it comes out of your amp...

[Madaeel]

Well I think my roll-off is saving me now but once I get the Oppo I definitely will NOT be running anything that hot.

 

That Earth to Echo scene looks crazy!! :o

[Bossobass Dave]

I also believe that WOTW at +15dB above 0dBFS is impossible with a Raptor System 3 being fed a flat signal.

 

To clarify, it's not possible from any subwoofer in existence.

 

Here are the peak hold and average graphs from WOTW, "9", TIH and Star Trek. The yellow trace is WOTW at +15dB:

 

 

WOTW has 20dB more output requirement than TIH at 1.5 Hz, +10dB more output requirement at 3 Hz, +6dB more requirement at 4 Hz and equal requirement at 5 Hz and 6 Hz. Since it takes 4X the excursion at 1.5 Hz to give equal output as at 3 Hz and 4X the excursion at 3 Hz to give equal output as at 6 Hz and consider that there are a wide spread of frequencies occurring simultaneous to the 1.5 Hz and 3 Hz signals with WOTW needing +8dB more at 30 Hz than TIH, reference plus 15dB pretty much is not gonna happen.

 

And, that's with the System 3 roll off that puts the signal at -6dB @ 3 Hz and -10dB @ 1.5 Hz.

 

IOW, you could jack the voltage peak limiter to a point beyond which the drivers would probably tear apart and still not meet the mark.

[Bossobass Dave]

Math done for you... this is the requirement by octave from 6-1.5 Hz:

 

 

There is room gain, roll off and +15dB hot to factor in, but it all comes out pretty close in the wash.

[maxmercy]

What I did with my system is to basically get the same amount of excursion (by eye) at 1.5Hz and 3Hz as at 5Hz and left it at that, and hope room gain gives what it can, as I cannot measure that low anyway.

 

JSS

[Bossobass Dave]

What I did with my system is to basically get the same amount of excursion (by eye) at 1.5Hz and 3Hz as at 5Hz and left it at that, and hope room gain gives what it can, as I cannot measure that low anyway.

 

JSS

 

Excursion-wise, that's exactly what to do.

 

Say you're flat to 6 Hz in-room at reference. Here's a metric that will show what happens when you bump +15dB in which room gain, etc., is already factored in:

[Madaeel]

Makes sense what you're saying. I have the subs 10db hot at all times. I would feel very little calibrated flat in my room and I haven't had to turn them down once yet listening at ref, which I always do unless the ST itself is hotter than normal like TIH. I can check my levels again and rerun it but I know it was at least 10db hot. I can prolly do it tomorrow before work and let you know if I was off though. I assumed since my room is easier to drive than most rooms, that's why I'm "hotter" than most as well. I've been wrong before that's for sure.

[Bossobass Dave]

Makes sense what you're saying. I have the subs 10db hot at all times. I would feel very little calibrated flat in my room and I haven't had to turn them down once yet listening at ref, which I always do unless the ST itself is hotter than normal like TIH. I can check my levels again and rerun it but I know it was at least 10db hot. I can prolly do it tomorrow before work and let you know if I was off though. I assumed since my room is easier to drive than most rooms, that's why I'm "hotter" than most as well. I've been wrong before that's for sure.

 

Well, I'm not finished yet.

 

Been working on various things and haven't had the time to post the rest on the subject, but...

 

When you "move up" to 10 Hz with your +18dB of room gain you can do reference with 4mm of excursion at 1M. That's why the drivers look like they're hardly movin' at reference and, as you've said several times, the system has a ton left in the tank. Run it at +15dB hot and your cruisin at 10 Hz at about 1.5" P to P

 

And, as you've said, you still have gas in the tank.

 

The reasonj I can't do Ref + 15dB with WOTW loaded in the player is the 3-5 Hz content needs  tons more throw than at 10 Hz and up.

 

This is just a reminder how exponentially excursion requirements jump when you go to the OPPO and suddenly gain +6dB at 3 Hz to ease... it... up... from <reference with those discs with ULF content until you find the sweet spot.

[Madaeel]

Oh yah don't worry like I said I *only* play that loud because of the roll-off in my pre/pro. When I get the Oppo I will never run that hot! Well unless it's a 30hz flick.

 

That's why I said in my post when I'm flat to 3hz with the Oppo I'll most likely only be running 5-10 db hot. I don't want you to worry I'll kill some Raptors. Every movie I watch for the first time I keep my door open to the amp and never have the subs that hot to start. I started WotW at -10 from ref and the sub only 5db hot. They were coasting so I bumped it a smidge.

 

Btw I wanted to tell you my mom came over tonight and watched TIH with me since she never saw it and of course I don't mind watching it again. She loved it of course and LOVED the bass too. She had a worried look on her face a couple times haha. So during the Hulk vs Abomination scene I was waiting for the cop car smash cuz I thought it was when he punched the Abomination it was 10hz. Except when I was at your house it was when he grabbed him before the punch. Well tonight I of course watched that scene and it is when he grabs him and it FELT F'N AWESOME!! Idk why I thought it was during the punch but man that entire scene is ULF bliss. I love my Raptors.

 

Receiver should be here tomorrow so I should be able to hear the Minka BB for more than 5 minutes finally...

[Bossobass Dave]

Oh yah don't worry like I said I *only* play that loud because of the roll-off in my pre/pro. When I get the Oppo I will never run that hot! Well unless it's a 30hz flick.

 

That's why I said in my post when I'm flat to 3hz with the Oppo I'll most likely only be running 5-10 db hot. I don't want you to worry I'll kill some Raptors. Every movie I watch for the first time I keep my door open to the amp and never have the subs that hot to start. I started WotW at -10 from ref and the sub only 5db hot. They were coasting so I bumped it a smidge.

 

Btw I wanted to tell you my mom came over tonight and watched TIH with me since she never saw it and of course I don't mind watching it again. She loved it of course and LOVED the bass too. She had a worried look on her face a couple times haha. So during the Hulk vs Abomination scene I was waiting for the cop car smash cuz I thought it was when he punched the Abomination it was 10hz. Except when I was at your house it was when he grabbed him before the punch. Well tonight I of course watched that scene and it is when he grabs him and it FELT F'N AWESOME!! Idk why I thought it was during the punch but man that entire scene is ULF bliss. I love my Raptors.

 

Receiver should be here tomorrow so I should be able to hear the Minka BB for more than 5 minutes finally...

 

So now you know how we arrived at the 10 Hz HPF for 3 of the preset curves. You can get more extension than other subs and run the level much higher, if that's preferred. Full extension requires backing down the level to reference.

 

Here's Tron: Entering the grid at maximum throw, per extensive testing, with the mic'd SpecLab cap cropped at 30 Hz, room size being out of the equation:

 

 

[Bossobass Dave]

 

Receiver should be here tomorrow so I should be able to hear the Minka BB for more than 5 minutes finally...

 

Very cool, and... pics or it didn't happen.

[Madaeel]

So now you know how we arrived at the 10 Hz HPF for 3 of the preset curves. You can get more extension than other subs and run the level much higher, if that's preferred. Full extension requires backing down the level to reference.

 

Here's Tron: Entering the grid at maximum throw, per extensive testing, with the mic'd SpecLab cap cropped at 30 Hz, room size being out of the equation:

 

 

Idk what "backing down the level to reference" means so I'll have to google that.

 

That excursion is awesome! Man those drivers have some throw. That also reminds me to pop Tron back in and see what that scene can do with subs that have no leaks haha.

 

Very cool, and... pics or it didn't happen.

It of course came while I was at work so tomorrow it'll happen. I can't wait to be able to play with the Minka. She's jsut sitting there looking pretty and bored. She needs to stretch her legs a bit. Btw idk if I told you but Jazzy loves that you dubbed it the Minka.

 

Speclab graphs tomorrow.

[maxmercy]

Just wait until you try Tron:Legacy BEQ....new ballgame.  It actually didn't get a whole lot of correction, only to the LFE mainly.  It was the only channel with a significant rolloff, and the only channel left unclipped.

 

JSS

[Madaeel]

You're killing me Max....all I need is a MiniDSP between the Bluray player and pre/pro right?

[maxmercy]

the MiniDSP nanoAVR.  That's it, as long as your BDP can decode DTSHD and Dolby TrueHD to 7.1 LPCM.  I think I already have a few config files posted for some of the newer films that could use the help (TF4, Godzilla, Man of Steel), and I also have The Matrix and Transformers 2 (still my fav BEQ experience) posted, I believe.  I try to get back as much ULF as I can within my 7dB constraint, without gutting the >30Hz content.  The better the mix I begin with (no clipping), the better it sounds BEQ'ed.

 

JSS