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Is the Genelec 7060 the best subwoofer in the $2000 price range?


intgenx

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@FOH,

 

Thanks but I think I've been misunderstood.

not sure why people here seem to be saying I haven't heeded any advice...

Granted I haven't gone for any of the Chinese made subs but I'm 100% sold on the Seaton SubMs - but after I showed the dimensions and some pics to my wife... she said "too big and there ends the matter"...

I've msgd Mark Seaton on the possibility of doing a custom 10" compact sub and I'm ready to order a pair or if the price is right even 3.

 

but now that I'm sold on the Seaton - how could I go for anything less or any other brand - unless Mark himself suggests something else...

 

so if he is unable to do a custom one for me ...

 

and the Martin Logan Depth i and Acoustic Energy Pro-sub are 2nd best in the price category and there seem to be no other choices - then what am I do other than DIY?

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The JTR Captivator S1 subs are ~1/3 smaller than the Seaton Submersives -

 

21″ W x 16.25" D x 21″ H for the S1 (4.15cuft external dims)

vs.

24.25" W x 17.5" D x 25.5" H for the SubM (6.26cuft external dims)

 

The JTR subs have the same stellar reputation for accuracy & customer service as the SubM, receive glowing reviews everywhere, are also manufactured from Baltic Birch in the USA, to order, with magnetic grills, employ the same amps as the Seaton subs (with their own DSP), and are available in a similar range of positive WAF custom finishes.  They'll have similar output and similar accuracy in a smaller package.  Also, Jeff Permanian (owner of JTR) and Mark Seaton are close friends who, as I understand it, have collaborated on designs in the past.

 

The thing you'd likely be concerned about here is the lack of dual-opposed designs for vibration cancelling.  However, when we're talking about subs of this caliber, you're not going to be using them as end tables, and their prodigious output is going to create vibrations as resonances in your room & furniture, no matter what.

 

In your price range, 10" subs will not compare.  They simply can't due to the laws of physics, and no amount of engineering will change that iron-clad fact.  I think that's partially what FOH was alluding to.  I suspect that you've bought into the idea that smaller subs are "faster" or "tighter" for cone control on transients.  This is nonsense audiophile marketing that has essentially no basis in fact, especially when comparing equipment at this price level. 

 

The only thing that *might* make some very minor difference would be servo control, and I still haven't seen a lot of justification for it that merits a huge price premium.  Rhythmik subs offer patented servo control at a reasonable price.  Plus, by all accounts, they make great equipment in your budget's ballpark.

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Most anyone could benefit from a Seaton offering, custom or otherwise. The SpeakerPower amps (as nube stated same as JTRs) are really ideally suited for such use. American designed, made, and huge long term power output numbers and essentially bulletproof operation. Remember, Seaton offers these in various configs, including a dual opposed, and the gorgeous F2 version. As nube described, JTR's S1 may have a more favorable form factor, and amp sourced from SpeakerPower also,.. good stuff.

 

I can't imagine there's not a sub(s) within the recommended group; SVS, Rhythmik, Seaton, and JTR, that wouldn't pass the aesthetic WAF test. Any custom sub you would pay a premium for, less performance, more money. Seaton does perform custom work, however his time is limited, and at a premium I'm sure. The nice looking, mirror finish SVS 13" sealed subs, driver quality second to none, seems like a great fit, but I've already mentioned these suggestions and I know you're looking elsewhere.

 

What is the aesthetic concern? Mere physical size? Physical appearance, finish? I realize some are prepared to make spousal concessions and sacrifice performance for aesthetic concerns. You could throw this out there; ... "you pick my subwoofer, I get to pick your _____ . (shoes, clothes, purse, .. etc.). Of course I'm joking, family is more important than any aspect of our A/V systems, ... just barely but yeah ...somewhat more important.  

 

Our system is in a shared, non-dedicated family space. That said, my wife and kids have become so enamored by reference quality sound, in everything from their favorite music, TV shows and of course full tilt multi-channel Blurays. So enamored in fact they've become entirely accepting to function over form. 

 

 

 

Thanks

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Yes... "Size does matter" and in my case its too big for the wife...

I meant the Seaton SubM...

its mere "physical size... nothing else... in our apartment it would simply look like a fridge placed to one corner...

The max. dimensions I've been able to finagle: 18" W x 18" D x 24" H

 

and unless he does a compact for me and there may be a few others who are interested...

 

JTR's don't have duals - for this reason I'll set them aside - unless they do customs as well...

 

may be I'll try to see if I could do a custom with... Selah or Rhythmik (I thought someone said these were made in China? that's why I took it off the list, could someone confirm)...

 

 

If I'm willing to go down the China route - I know I could go for Kreisel, SVS, Hsu, Sunfire etc etc...Pl. lets just drop those brands that are made in China...

 

 

Apart from the ML Depth i and Acoustic Engergy Pro-sub, I'm now seriously exploring custom and DIY options for a compact 10" dual active sub with a single passive radiator and may go for 2 of these.

Not sure what they will cost me in DIY or custom... but based on what I'm seeing on the DIY forums a dual 10" - my vague estimate is it should cost no more than $1000 each.

 

@FOH Thanks for the note regarding your family coming round, that gives me hope...

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If you're taking prospective items off the list due to overseas components, and I fully appreciate that, then you're left with Seaton, as far as I know. As we discussed, the Seaton and JTR products are equipped with SpeakerPower amplifiers. Brian Oppegaard, owner/engineer at SpeakerPower, makes the amps in the US, from all local venders.

 

So, there may be other entirely non-Chinese options, but the expense would go up commensurately. Like maybe a Nathan Funk/FunkyWaves sub, or John Janowitz/Acoustic Elegance, perhaps Jeff Permanian of JTR even, ... one of these mated to a SpeakerPower amp. But, as wonderful as those would be, they'd be without question be budget busters.

 

The killer little SVS SB13 fits dimensionally, aesthetically it's gorgeous... but I'm pretty sure it possesses Chinese amp module.

 

You mentioned dual 10" subs, DIY, at no more that $1k each. Easily doable but they need power and signal shaping, so - enter the Chinese (or SpeakerPower @ $900-$1000 depending on wattage). If you pursue a DIY solution, you'll need to signal shape the sub's response with EQ, to overcome the characteristics the box imposes upon the driver. Although this aspect is accomplished by DIY'ers all the time, it certainly isn't a trivial task. It would take testing, measuring gear/software, and the knowledge to properly accomplish the optimizing.

 

 

These and other issues, are why, upon examining your must haves, I stated that I couldn't help you. I'm not familiar with a non-Chinese solution, to subwoofing within the constraints you've outlined.  

 

 

Again, this seems as if we're going in circles. Given all the hurdles I've pointed out, it would seem a SpeakerPower based, custom built (all measuring/optimizing executed for you), is essentially your only option. The candidates to perform such work are few; Nathan Funk, Mark Seaton, Jeff Permanian maybe John Janowitz. I'm guessing there's more, but again utilizing the DSP in the SpeakerPower torpedoes is a daunting, complicated process, from my understanding. 

 

In my opinion, your position is untenable. Unless, of course, you make concessions to size, budget, or country of origin.   

 

     

   

 

 

 .

 

 

 

 

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...then you're left with Seaton,

Like maybe a Nathan Funk/FunkyWaves sub, or John Janowitz/Acoustic Elegance, perhaps Jeff Permanian of JTR even, ... one of these mated to a SpeakerPower amp. But, as wonderful as those would be, they'd be without question be budget busters.

 

You mentioned dual 10" subs, DIY, at no more that $1k each. Easily doable but they need power and signal shaping, so - enter the Chinese (or SpeakerPower @ $900-$1000 depending on wattage).... it would seem a SpeakerPower based, custom built (all measuring/optimizing executed for you), is essentially your only option.

 

The candidates to perform such work are few; Nathan Funk, Mark Seaton, Jeff Permanian maybe John Janowitz. I'm guessing there's more, but again utilizing the DSP in the SpeakerPower torpedoes is a daunting, complicated process, from my understanding. 

 

In my opinion, your position is untenable. Unless, of course, you make concessions to size, budget, or country of origin.   

 

Thanks for the realistic picture...

I see your point one of the 3 has to give...

and we know "size matters" (as it comes under the WAF - so that will be the last to give...)

it may have to start with giving in on the country of origin and end with giving in on the budget...

 

 

I'll try to approach the four Masters of the Game you listed for custom solution and see what the estimate is... (Mark Seaton - I've already sent a PM, any leads on how to get in touch with the others?)

 

 

Yeah.. I forgot about the tuning aspect of DIY... they don't tell you how hard it can be when people recommend a DIY...
Has someone created a set of "forewarnings/disclaimers"... listing the "Do not venture into DIY - if you can't do this, this and that and don't try to do it if you don't have this, this and that...

 

therefore...if something along the lines of the Sunfire TS-EQ-10 - which has most of the specs I'm looking for in a sub except the country of origin and the unknown SQ...can't be put together in a DIY...  and by now its clear that I'd have to be ok with something that has some Chinese components for where its absolutely needed...

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You may contact Mark via PM, or email, however he often suggests calling is the best option; 773-290-8436. Actually, discussing the issue with him may unveil other avenues to pursue.

 

The others all have web presences.   

 

The Carver subs were somewhat ahead of the curve 10-15 years ago. I'm not sure how they stack up these days, especially against such solid mfrs as SVS, etc. I saw the Carver product line while attending CEDIA last year, however they weren't being properly demoed.       

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I think if the custom made options turn-out to be expensive/unviable - I will keep my options open for a DIY -

In which case should I consider drivers from Peerless Fabrikkerne India?
peerlessaudio. com

How good are their 10", 12" drivers in comparison to whatever else is the best in this segment?

 

It may save me quite a bit on hassles with the notoriously corrupt and inefficient Indian customs and the high duties...and the weakening Rupee (just went down by 15% in the last month) has put serious dents into my original budgets...

If not which makes and models are the best drivers for 10" or 12" sub-woofers?

What is the ideal material for a subwoofer driver if price were no concern?

 

Aluminum, paper, kevlar etc?

 

What is the ideal material for a subwoofer cabinet if price were no concern?

MDF, Hard-wood, Solid Aluminum, GRP (fiberglass) - any others?

 

If Hardwood works as good as or better than MDF in teh resonance dept - then I know West African Ebony (Diospyros crassiflora) (used for piano keys) will be the ideal - but not available easily and too expensive...

which other ones? - I can get some really good solid hardwoods like teak, sheesham (Dalbergia sissoo), mango wood, jack wood, african padauk (pterocarpus) etc.. 

 

 

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Again, looking around for camera ...  as if this were a on-line version of Candid-Camera.

 

I will proceed as if you're sincere, maybe it's just me.

 

The questions you listed, cone material, cabinet material (sheesham Dalbergia sissoo padauk pterocarpus) ... dude, really? Make it out of whatever you want, just make sure it's inert. All of this esoteric silliness at is way less important than the basic skill-set needed to optimize and properly blend the sub into the system and surroundings.

 

The Peerless LF drivers are fine. Buy a kit from diysoundgroup and finish it however you want.  

 

For that matter, since your insistence for N.American lineage is off the table, go back to post #1 and start over.  

 

 

Good luck

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My advice to you is to buy a SVS SB13-Ultra. The sub performs well, is bulletproof and reliable, will sound excellent, has excellent finishes available and should pass the size requirements. SVS has a distributor in India so you will have warranty coverage and service should you need it. It hits all of your criteria except for origin of components and manufacture. You need to forget about that.

 

Or buy the Genelec.

 

Anything custom or DIY is either out of your price range or too advanced for you to get a good result. No offense but judging from your many posts across multiple forums on this subject it seems you lack the required knowledge, skill set and understanding of basics to make DIY a good option for you. It takes more than just throwing a big amp and a driver into a box.

 

Data-Bass is a very odd place for you to have come asking these questions anyway. You would be better off leaving this in a more subjective, consumer driven forum.

 

My 2 (and only) cents

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@Ricci.. No offense taken...and by coming to this forum - I may have taken the first step to bridging those very gaps (knowledge, skills and understanding) I know I have... its not a question of whether these can be gained... its a question of whether I have the motivation and time to dedicate to gain...

 

For now - lets assume I drop the customs/DIY - if its just manufactured subs...

 

Most everyone here and on other forums have me convinced that the sealed opposed duals/triples are the best for fidelity and performance

I don't think I could get myself to go for anything less than a sealed opposed dual... be it 8", 10" or 12"...

 

The following are great but:

1. Seaton SubM (too big to pass WAF)

2. KK DXD808 (2k just for an 8" dual?)

3. Vandersteen 2Wq (takes only speaker level input)

 

That leaves me with very few choices:

1. Acoustic Energy Pro-sub

2. Martin Logan Depth i

 

Or Get a Rythmik kit for a DIY dual/quad opposed servo controlled sub (with possible dual passive drivers?) - this will be the ultimate in my opinion and this option will mean I'm going to have to invest the time and motivation to bridge all the gaps in knowledge that I'm painfully aware of ...

 

my heart is now with DIY and head says "First of all, can you do it? Second are you gonna be happy with the result? With fidelity being the goal and not proving that I can make a sub for myself"

 

and all of my present knowledge (and the knowledge that I don't have enough knowledge yet) - I couldn't have obtained without posting in the many forums... as each forum has given me many little nuggets of information to slowly piece together the puzzle...so thanks everyone...especially the ones who have posted detailed enough educative replies...

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My advice to you is to buy a SVS SB13-Ultra. The sub performs well, is bulletproof and reliable, will sound excellent, has excellent finishes available and should pass the size requirements. SVS has a distributor in India so you will have warranty coverage and service should you need it. It hits all of your criteria except for origin of components and manufacture. You need to forget about that.

 

Or buy the Genelec.

 

Anything custom or DIY is either out of your price range or too advanced for you to get a good result. No offense but judging from your many posts across multiple forums on this subject it seems you lack the required knowledge, skill set and understanding of basics to make DIY a good option for you. It takes more than just throwing a big amp and a driver into a box.

 

Data-Bass is a very odd place for you to have come asking these questions anyway. You would be better off leaving this in a more subjective, consumer driven forum.

 

My 2 (and only) cents

 

@Ricci.. No offense taken...and by coming to this forum - I may have taken the first step to bridging those very gaps (knowledge, skills and understanding) I know I have... its not a question of whether these can be gained... its a question of whether I have the motivation and time to dedicate to gain...

 

For now - lets assume I drop the customs/DIY - if its just manufactured subs...

 

Most everyone here and on other forums have me convinced that the sealed opposed duals/triples are the best for fidelity and performance

I don't think I could get myself to go for anything less than a sealed opposed dual... be it 8", 10" or 12"...

 

The following are great but:

1. Seaton SubM (too big to pass WAF)

2. KK DXD808 (2k just for an 8" dual?)

3. Vandersteen 2Wq (takes only speaker level input)

 

That leaves me with very few choices:

1. Acoustic Energy Pro-sub

2. Martin Logan Depth i

 

Or Get a Rythmik kit for a DIY dual/quad opposed servo controlled sub (with possible dual passive drivers?) - this will be the ultimate in my opinion and this option will mean I'm going to have to invest the time and motivation to bridge all the gaps in knowledge that I'm painfully aware of ...

 

my heart is now with DIY and head says "First of all, can you do it? Second are you gonna be happy with the result? With fidelity being the goal and not proving that I can make a sub for myself"

 

and all of my present knowledge (and the knowledge that I don't have enough knowledge yet) - I couldn't have obtained without posting in the many forums... as each forum has given me many little nuggets of information to slowly piece together the puzzle...so thanks everyone...especially the ones who have posted detailed enough educative replies...

No mention of SVS and wants to DIY potentially...guess he didn't like your advice Josh.  :rolleyes:

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No mention of SVS and wants to DIY potentially...guess he didn't like your advice Josh.  :rolleyes:

 

I didn't mention the SVS because they are entirely made in China - not just some components - like with the other makers 

and the SVS website calls a pair of single driver subs duals - which is not the same as dual-push-pull subs like those listed above...

 

this has nothing to do with liking or not liking someone's advice - it just doesn't fit the criteria...

 

once you have me convinced dual/triple push-pull sealed subs are the way to go - I can't step down to single driver subs...

if anything i'm dreaming about a dual servo controlled with a dual passive

or even a quad servo controlled sub..

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You know, the SVS sealed  was the first sub I recommended in the first response in post #2.

 

I repeatedly recommended it, and there's local availability with dealers and service. It fits the form factor, the aesthetic requirement, the OP conceded that Chinese sourcing is ok..... but no, not entirely Chinese. Nope, can't go there ...it's gotta go.  

 

   

"if anything i'm dreaming about a dual servo controlled with a dual passive

or even a quad servo controlled sub.." 

 

Is this some kind of Punk'd episode? Really? Can you think of anything else you want to throw in?  

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Just stretch your budget a little and go with the Triax, fills most of your requirements, you cant get everything you want so stop asking for it.

 

Here are the features:

 

 
Proprietary, USA assembled, 15" high excursion driver
4000W RMS / 8000W Peak amplifier with DSP built in USA
American made, satin black texture and real wood veneered cabinets
15Hz-200Hz +/-3dB (7Hz-11Hz typical in-room extension)
 
I can tell now that DIY is not for you at this time. To build a sub like the Triax with the outstanding amp it uses would be pricey anyway so the price is not far off. 
 
You don't have a lot of choices that meet your criteria, you have to make compromises. For you that compromise would be to stretch your budget and get a killer sub, not much more discussion is necessary.
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I agree... budget is the most likely compromise I can realistically deal with in the long run...

 

The Triax and Depth i - seem to fit most criteria - but before going that route and "admitting" failure/lack of confidence even before venturing into it... my heart still keeps saying ... DIY while the head says what you all are saying "you can't, you won't be happy with it etc"

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I was hoping to hear a "Go DIY, yay!!!!"

 

The process to arrive at DIY was necessary... Starting with Genelec 7060 and after careful consideration of the manufactured options - coming round to thinking DIY must be the way to go.. took a long time as it should - It was not my preferred option... but the more and more I learn about what is available and the constraints...the more I got convinced that I have to listen to my heart and embark on a DIY...

I'm going to learn and do what it takes to find out if I can succeed or fail trying - which will also be a good learning experience...

 

once we begin thinking of designs for use in compact apartment living rooms with very reflective cement/polished marble surfaces on walls/floors and ceilings... where in the whole apartment becomes the cabinet and the subwoofer is just a driver within...we can come up with some reasonable design/performance compromises

My listening distance will be about 15' to 17' and the sub paired with the mains should be sufficient for this listening distance... and I want to be careful and not get something that will overpower the space in its sound or its presence...
 

 

I see the subwoofer as nothing more than the "3rd driver" of the "2 way" mains
it just needs to handle the 20Hz-80Hz range as accurately as possible in unison with the mains (at a suitable SPL compatible with the mains) for music and for movies it can step in without fanfare in unison with the center/surrounds  (at a suitable SPL compatible with the center/surrounds) for the 20-120Hz content in the 5 channels and the occasional LFE...

to obtain the best pairing with the mains - I'm assuming a stereo configuration for the subs...
the mains Genelec G Four (8040) have a 6.5" woofer with a 90W amp...for the mid-range... so I would guess... the "3rd way" need not be more than 8" or 10" drivers with 200-300W amps for ported designs (as with the Genelec 8260 (3 way) and the 7060 subwoofer) and for sealed designs go one step higher with 10" or  600-800W or 12" with 800-1000W dual/triple push-pull and servo controlled ...

 

The surface area of the 6.5" ported woofer on my mains is 33.17 sq inch with a 90W amp and the surrounds have a 5" woofer with a 40W amp..

The surface area I'm told I will need in my subwoofer should be 4 times that - which is 132.66 sq. inch
Which means a 13" inch subwoofer for ported designs driven by I'm guessing a 360Wamp
If going with a dual sealed sub - 2 x 10" gives an area of 157 sq. inch driven by in my guess about 700-900W amp each might be appropriate...
or dual sealed sub - 2 x 12" gives an area of 226 sq. inch driven by say 1000-1200W each might be appropriate...

or triple sealed sub - 3 x 10" gives an area of 235.5 sq. inch driven by the 700-900Wamp each might be appropriate...

 

 

So I welcome feedback on the above and request the help of whoever is willing to accompany me on this quest in whatever manner possible...

I'll keep this thread updated on the developments and as a sounding board...
Thanks everyone for all suggestions, opinions and lively debates...

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Best and most painless DIY is DIYSoundGroup. No need for expensive tools, just glue, clamps, a drill, some paint.

 

Dual Opposed 10" cabinet would be good for your needs, and fit the WAF. Build two. Use the Dayton reference drivers.

 

Stop buying into terms like 'push pull', 'servo', and 'triple'. What you need is linear playback at the levels you need to listen at. No amount of marketing-speak will give you that. Enough linear displacement will.

 

Before you buy anything, buy or build some measurement gear and see what you have before you decide on what you need. REW is free and powerful. Great threads at AVS and HTS on how to use it, and its user manual is also very well written.

 

Your biggest problem will be the reflective room.

 

JSS

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Best and most painless DIY is DIYSoundGroup. No need for expensive tools, just glue, clamps, a drill, some paint.

 

Dual Opposed 10" cabinet would be good for your needs, and fit the WAF. Build two. Use the Dayton reference drivers.

 

Stop buying into terms like 'push pull', 'servo', and 'triple'. What you need is linear playback at the levels you need to listen at. No amount of marketing-speak will give you that. Enough linear displacement will.

 

Before you buy anything, buy or build some measurement gear and see what you have before you decide on what you need. REW is free and powerful. Great threads at AVS and HTS on how to use it, and its user manual is also very well written.

 

Your biggest problem will be the reflective room.

 

JSS

 

+1

 

Again, and I've stated it often, ...way more important than any of the minutia you're focusing on, is your room's influence and the proper blending of whatever sub you do get. 

 

Going DIY, allows you easily to get a pair of subs, and educate and equip yourself to blend them into your environment. 

 

Jump in, move forward, stop the tire kicking and endless analysis, ie., analysis paralysis, been there. As maxmercy stated, there's a strong community elsewhere w/support for REW, or OmniMic, go for it. Then you can focus back onto the material, music and movies.        

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+1 to both previous posts. Simply put, there is more than one "right" answer here.

 

Either buy something that may fit your room and needs, and accept the costs and compromises, or build something that you know will fit your room and needs, and accept the compromises and complexity. 

 

DIY is the only way I know of to make the sub fit the space and decor requirements, while minimizing the compromises to the actual performance. 

 

Accurate and honest response measurements of your speakers in your room are the ONLY way period to determine what you have and what you need. You can't really do any sort of audio correctly without measurements, and I can guarantee that when you measure your speakers in your room, regardless of brand or manufacturer's claims, you will have opened Pandora's box. 

 

This is worse than paralysis by analysis, we're talking about paralysis without any real analysis here, we've only been comparing the names and numbers printed on the box. No actual data.

 

As far as subs go? Marketing words are just that. Servo, dual opposed, and so forth have little meaning in the real world, but really look great in ad copy. As others have said here, linear displacement is king, and you really can't have enough of it. The lower you want the sub to go, the more displacement you'll need to get there. More drivers is always better, until you get to 8, at which point diminishing returns has really kicked in. Certainly, there are other limits that come into play, like being able to fit into the room. All that being said, a pair of capable 15s in proper cabinets should be plenty, and should more than keep up with the rest of your system.

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  • 4 weeks later...

The patience and professionalism in this thread is noteworthy.  You guys are a class act, seriously.  Really good advice being given here.  Wish I would have found this forum when I was sub searching.

 

I now use a pair of Turbo'd MFW15s.  I coudn't find anything at that price point that performed better, that wasn't DIY.

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