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Is the Genelec 7060 the best subwoofer in the $2000 price range?

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Dear Folks,

I've searched the forum for sub-recommendations and am now suffering from information overload and can't seem to make a list to even narrow down my choices and now I need your help to finalize a sub-woofer for a 5.1ch Home-theater with Active speakers.

 

Center & Surrounds: Genelec G Three (consumer grade version of 8030)
Left & Right: Genelec G Four (consumer grade version of 8040) 

The advantage with this setup is the G 4 paired with a good sub gets me a very good 2.1ch setup for music that performs at the G4 level and for movies the G 4 can easily match the level of the G 3 in the center/surrounds and I will essentially get a 5.1ch setup for movies that performs at the G 3 level.

 

My requirement is a sub that integrates well with the above setup. The sub has perform better than the Genelec 7060 (at the $2100 price range) and at least as good as the Genelec 7050 ($1100 price range).

 

 

In short - my question is as follows:
Is the Genelec 7060 the best sub in the world (for fidelity and low distortion) at its $2100 price point?

 

 

The main performance criteria being very low distortion, high fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight, clean bass. SPL is not the most important factor.

 

The dealer claims that the Genelec 7060 is worth every penny of its $2200 price because of the following: Genelec's proprietary Laminar Spiral Enclosure (LSE) [does anyone know how this makes the sub better than everything else]"0" db baffle resonance, driver giving all the SPL and not the cabinets rattling, construction rock solid and no coloration in the Low Frequency and also power efficient consumes only 120W for an SPL@1m of 108dB and is well integrated with the Genelec speakers.

 

 

Other details - in case you have time to read further:

1. Budget: $700 to $1500 (base USD prices before taxes, shipping etc).Since I can't buy used, I will also have to add about 70% on top of the base price for duty, shipping ,VAT etc to arrive at my final cost.

2. Size requirements/limits: I think an 8" or 10" sub should be sufficient - should have freq response down to 21 or 22 hz. with the best fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight clean distortion free bass is my most important criterion - not loudness/SPL.

3. Room dimensions:  Living/Dining hall: 25' x 18' open to a Foyer: 9' x 12' with Ceiling height 10'. Flooring is polished marble, walls are brick with cement plaster. (Refer: post-153-0-31487500-1375939974_thumb.jpg)

4. Primary uses: Usage will be about 70% movies - 30% music.
All videos (avi, mp4, mpg, mkv, divx etc) and music (mp3) files are on hard-disk and will be played via VLC player from a home-theater PC, all the speakers will be directly connected to the 5.1ch sound card on the PC using XLR (any body know if a sound card has XLR out available?) or through RCA-XLR conversion jack or plain RCA jack.

5. Listening habits: I do not plan on playing it with blow me off my seats loudness (except may be when the wife is away) but just a set that is accurate/ transparent, without rattling and unwanted vibrations etc. I'm not looking for earth shattering bass - just accurate, clean distortion free bass - that is as good as or better than Genelec 7060.

6. Appearance requirements: It has to be sufficiently compact and good looking to complement the Genelecs G 4/ G 3 but needn't be super-compact or sleek - so as to compromise price or performance...It needs to be made in Europe or North America

7. Location and Time-frame: I'm an American expat based in Bangalore, India and that means fewer options to consider and there is no "used" market to speak of and imported things in general cost nearly double here compared to the base US prices. Can't really buy internet direct either - but I do want the best (most accurate, transparent) sub out there in my price range... therefore I may be willing to wait and buy the right thing by whatever means I can.

 

8. DIY is not an option for this setup. I may do it as a second or complementary sub - if needed - but the criteria will remain the same - tight bass, low distortion, no rattling, power efficient etc comparable to Genelec... I don't think I can achieve that in a million years...

 

9. WAF: "Any darned thing which is...Not too big, Not too loud. Not too ugly."

 

10. I'm looking to find the "Best" sub there is not just "very good or excellent" in the $700 - $2000 price bracket.

I assume there are very few choices (in my budget)... that are equal or better performance/accuracy than the Genelec 7060 in the above categories: tight bass, low distortion, low waste due to heat or noise, accuracy/transparency,etc...(loudness and bomb like air/earth moving ability is not a criterion for me) - the brand has to have the same studio cred and audiophile/pro/musician cred and halo effect as the Genelecs and look tastefully (no flashy/glossy stuff) done too...

 

would the Genelec 7060 still be the sub to get at that price point? 

Thanks in advance for all responses...

 

 

 

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So many issues.

 

Genelec, although superb products, typically aren't the best at a given price-point.

 

Also, the normal model of mfr/dealer/retailor/consumer, is dated and overly burdened with layers of profit ... especially when it comes to subwoofers. The internet direct purchasing of subs from mfrs. offers unbeatable performance/value and most importantly quality.

 

The dealer claims regarding the enclosure, and baffle resonance, rattling etc; robust, rattle free construction is a given. Anything less is unacceptable, and the comments seem a bit dramatic. Also, how well a subwoofer integrates with the remaining system, is a function of the user's skillset and tools available to them.

 

Given your stated parameters, I'd examine both SVS' and Rythmik's offerings (SVS SB13, Rythmik FV15HP are two examples). Be mindful, oftentimes two lesser subs may out-perform a single more capable sub with regards to a well blended and fully integrated end goal. This would depend on the room layout, and the comfort level and ability/tools to integrate multiples.

 

You stated you may consider a second sub and a DIY effort, but "not in a million years" could that compare to the "tight bass, low distortion, no rattling, power efficient etc comparable to Genelec". I strongly disagree. What's achievable in the DIY realm would easily outperform the finest available commercially made subwoofer by any manufacturer in the world.

I hope this helps.

 

I'm but one member, the community here is world class regarding the above issues, so there's plenty of help to be had here.

 

Although I believe both SVS, and Rythmik are N. American made, I can't confirm that. There are others here even better suited than myself in help with this. This is truly a world class community here, hope this helps.

 

 

Best of luck and welcome to Data-Bass

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Great advice!  I have nothing to add, other than if you don't have a lot of building tools at your disposal, the diysoundgroup.com flat packs are an unbelievable value.

 

JSS

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Its sad that most manufacturers focus on the loudness instead of the hi-fi aspect of sub-woofers 

I gez there is nothing wrong with "catering to the market" - making what their customers want and buy...


I'm just looking for those select few manufacturers who make subs that musicians and recording studios use... basically only serious contenders to Genelec... PMC, ATC, Barefoot, B&W, Focal, M&K, ADAM etc... but are SVS, Rythmik and HSU in the same league as the above...

all I want to do is to compare subs in the same league as the Genelec 7060 and then decide if its worth buying it...

if there were to be a sub-woofer shoot-out with Genelec 7060 and 7 or 8 other makes (in a broad $1000 - $2500 price range) - which subs would even qualify for the shoot out and finish at the top 3, will the Genelec 7060 still be tops?

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Its sad that most manufacturers focus on the loudness instead of the hi-fi aspect of sub-woofers 

I gez there is nothing wrong with "catering to the market" - making what their customers want and buy...

 

I'm just looking for those select few manufacturers who make subs that musicians and recording studios use... basically only serious contenders to Genelec... PMC, ATC, Barefoot, B&W, Focal, M&K, ADAM etc... but are SVS, Rythmik and HSU in the same league as the above...

 

all I want to do is to compare subs in the same league as the Genelec 7060 and then decide if its worth buying it...

 

if there were to be a sub-woofer shoot-out with Genelec 7060 and 7 or 8 other makes (in a broad $1000 - $2500 price range) - which subs would even qualify for the shoot out and finish at the top 3, will the Genelec 7060 still be tops?[/size][/font][/color][/background]

Quality design and execution of loudspeakers, towers, bookshelves, planars, is extremely difficult. It's a multi-disciplinary pursuit including but not limited to acoustics, mechanics, electronics, psycho-acoustics. One must be adept at materials sciences, vibration analysis, complex acoustic measuring and analysis. Achieving a superior loudspeaker design and then bring it to market in a fully executed high performance is a daunting task.

 

 

Subwoofing, quality subwoofing, on the other hand is orders of magnitude easier to design and manufacture.

 

There's nothing magic about it, unless a stunning pice of artwork cabinet is needed, it's really quite simple. It's got to move air, as linearly as possible. Contrary to popular myth, small drivers have no advantage of big drivers. Mass or cone size has nothing to do with the ability of the driver to accurately track the subwoofer signal.

 

The mfrs you listed all make outstanding studio speakers, including subs. The Kreisel one you linked to is likely very high in quality too. But in the area of subwoofers, if you are looking for the best performance at a particular pricepoint, then the mfrs you listed can't compete.

You inquired if the HSU, Rythmik, and SVS are in the same league as the ones you listed. I'd say they outperform everything except Genelecs biggest (4)12" megabuck sub. But if their dual 12" is $6k, I hate to even ask about the quad 12".

 

Yes, I assure you these internet direct offerings are absolutely state of the art. It's just moving air ... as linearly as possible.

 

BTW; the Kreisel sub you linked to had so much BS marketing I just sat in disbelief. Yes, a push pull scenario has merit, however it's negligible. The room dominates the equation.

 

Again, I assure you, for quality bass it's more about the room, the acoustics, and your skillset in blending the sub system to remainder of the system. Yes, you want a quality sub to begin with, and the finest performance possible is well within your reach.

 

The SVS, and HSU have world class drivers. I don't know as much about the Rythmik's driver, however Josh tested one I believe and it was a strong performer.

 

I sincerely hope this helps, perhaps others can chime in too.

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Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.

I'm not just buying SQ but the experience of a brand - its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it - the halo effect if you will. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW 3series) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA)

 
SVS, HSU etc seem too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India and firm prices - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic
btw: I can't go demo the SVS as it is a 10 hr drive to the neighboring state and they don't have a try it and return policy and shipping costs and interstate taxes are high...

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I'm not just buying SQ but the experience of a brand - its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it - the halo effect if you will. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW 3series) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA)

 

Then you are in the wrong place.  If all you want is an exclusive brand name, search elsewhere.  Here, we measure hard data and do fair comparisons.  A loudspeaker driver does only one thing: try to replicate the signal it is being sent with as much fidelity as it can.  It cares not about 'brand', 'mystique', 'halo effect', or a 'storied past'.  If a loudspeaker driver from a less than 'illustrious' company beats one that is from said 'elite company', it is posted here at DB in black and white.  You are left to make your own conclusions.  If all you care about is a logo on your subwoofers that will impress your buddies because it is not a common one, again, you need to search elsewhere. 

 

The advice you have gotten from FOH you would have paid thousands for if you had some expert come to your house to say the same.

 

Genelec is a damned fine speaker company.  They have a staff that rivals any other, one of which was culled from the DIY crowd.  But do not think that their offerings are not without faults.  EVERY speaker is a compromise.  Genelec must make compromises, just like any other manufacturer, in order to be profitable, just as DIY'ers have a limited budget.

 

 

JSS

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I agree with you maxmercy - performance is the THE MAIN thing - that is why I'm here for a truly objective opinion - I have not taken Genelec performance for granted despite its very high brand perception and the fact that it will be the most integrated sub for the Genelec 8040/8030 speakers...nor do I have anything against SVS or other new sub-makers... if they are as good - why not?

 

I do have a problem with brands that claim "designed/engineered in ....USA/UK/Germany etc but made in China" -  if I'm buying Scotch - it better be distilled/blended/bottled in Scotland and when I know I'm looking for sparkling bubbly made by the champagne method - I know for sure I'm not buying Champagne... its all about terroir...

 

 

could you help me locate Genelec 7050 or 7060 or KK dxd808 or KK in any of the comparisons here?

 

I looked through the charts and spreadsheets - but at the end of the day I'm unable to make a decision as its just TMI.

 

what I am looking for is a sealed sub in the $1000 to $2000 category...
are the below subs comparable?
JL Fathom 110
Epik Empire
SVS?
Bowers Wilkins - ASW610XP or PV1D?

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Ok, this is ridiculous.

 

Genelec, which makes superb products, are way overpriced,...even beyond the norms of the industry. Every product they make can easily be bested at their price-point...pedigree be damned.  

 

The tiny, entirely inadequate G3 speakers you're buying are laughable, in my opinion, for the application in which you're tasking them. A 40w amp mated to a 5" driver, ... in an 70/30 HT/music usage scenario, in a mammoth 25'x18'x10' plus it's an open floor plan to other volume spaces! These are designed for a nearfield mixing situation, whereby one would want to see how a mix translates to small speakers, or a modest secondary system. Not a center channel of an HT. However, I could sense your brand loyalty in the posts, and I didn't want to offend.  

 

Your dealer may or may not be knowledgeable. But the BS he gave for the reason to buy the proprietary laminar spiral enclosure, 0 dB baffle resonance etc., what a load of crap. Either he really doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's willingly deceiving you,.. one or the other. I know buyers like yourself love to read add copy like accompanies the Ken Kreisel sub, but there's so much garbage meaningless double talk it's hard to believe.  

 

I tried to explain, it's different with subs. Loudspeakers, there exists some performance advantages in some of the minutia. Subwoofers, ... it's simple physics. I know many, like yourself, really place value on many of the marketing aspects that don't impact the performance at all. I get it, it's perceived value, ... go for it. Psycho-acoustics works amazingly well. Expectation bias, it's powerful stuff.

 

 

 "I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW 3series) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste."

 

"SVS, HSU etc seem too common"

 

"but at the end of the day I'm unable to make a decision as its just TMI."

 

Good luck, in all sincerity, buy whatever you want don't allow performance and value to enter the equation. You've made yourself perfectly clear, clearly one can see what elements are important to you. There's much better suited web based forums that are more aligned to your stated interests.   

 

If there's a time when you're interested in actual empirical performance aspects, let us know.

 

Best of luck  

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@FOH - I am looking for performance and value...

 

at the same time - I simply do not want a product made in China... at the price band I'm willing to spend... keep in mind I started at $2500 for the whole 5.1ch + receiver and am at $6500 for just the speakers and this is before shipping, taxes and customs duties - my final cost will be around $10,000.

 

now taking the above into account - could you recommend speakers/subwoofers that have true fidelity... it doesn't matter if they are active or passive etc... basically if a musician were to play whatever the instrument and record it and play it back on the speaker - it should be indistinguishable...in a blind test... or by actual measurements both in frequency and time...

 

that is what I'm looking for...fidelity - the "brand/history" etc is an offshoot of its consistent performance and the market recognizing the same over time...

 

therefore what I posted may have sounded prejudiced if read in snippets but in short... 

"give me fidelity or give me death".

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I don't have any experience with the Genelec 7060 but did own a Genelec HTS4B which has a MSRP of $4,995 and to be honest there was nothing very special about it. I easily surpassed the impact and sound quality of that sub with DIY and saved some money. 

 

Genelec is a fine company but your paying a premium just because of the name, the performance can easily be bettered.

 

If your looking for an excellent sub in the $2,000 range which is built in the US then how about the Seaton Submersive? I have heard the Submersive in 2 different systems and each time I was impressed. If I decided to get away from DIY then the Submersive would be near the top of my list of commercial subs I would buy. You can get more info and pricing here:  http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/Product-Listing-Availability-Status-and-Pricing-3366417

 

There is also JTR subwoofers that are also built here in the US and I have heard good things but have never demoed any JTR equipment personally.

 

All the advice that FOH and maxmercy have given you is really good, you can either believe them who have no personal financial gain or a salesperson whose sole purpose is to get your money. 

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"Instead of having one huge subwoofer it often is advisable to incorporate a few smaller ones in the setup to avoid standing waves at very low frequencies."

So to keep cost within reason and judging the WAF after putting in the entire setup - I may decide to add a second sub - in which case if I go 12" now - the WAF may kill it and I will never have a chance to feel what a dual sub setup would feel like... therefore I think I'll stick to 8" or 10" max and focus on fidelity and push-pull models...

 

after going through some reviews...
i'm thinking of the following requirements to obtain the best fidelity and vibration free bass:

1. Made in NA/EU/DU - this is a must have (NA and EU must be obvious but DU is for Down Under)
2. Sealed (went throught sealed vs ported debate and it seems Sealed is better for fidelity...except for the Genelec's LSE)
3. 8" or 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass
4. Needs to have XLR, RCA inputs
5. Low pass filter and other controls
6. LFE+Sum-out for daisy chaining
7. Auto-power on signal (nice to have feature), with volume remote etc

The ADAM Sub8 and Sub10 are not duals but they are within my price range and satisfy most other criteria.

It seems the Velodynes, Paradigms, Power Sound Audio, Seaton, Rhythmik and JL Audio are made in NA - am I right?

any other brands?
 

again it feels like "water, water, everywhere, nor any drop to drink"

multitude of sub-makers...but none that fits... still hunting for the sub in that Goldilocks zone...

and heaven forbid - should nothing exist - I may need the help of the esteemed members of the forum to help me on a DIY.

 

 

how about this for a DIY - a ported dual driver design set in opposing spiral enclosures like a 69
 

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and Martin Logan - Depth i and Descent i

the Martin Logan Depth i - surely fits the budget, size, brand and performance wise...and i believe its made in Canada...
the only minor issue is that - it has no XLR input... (available on the Descent i - which goes into the $3200 category).
Dont you think XLR input is something a serious hi-fidelity equipment at the $2200 price point ought to have...not sure why Martin Logan cheaped out on such a small thing. Not knowing where in the room it will need to be placed and the Depth/Descent i are apparently known for requiring much more precise placement than other single/dual subs - I'd surely like to run balanced cables if need be (because the Genelec G4 and G3 speakers have both RCA and XLR).

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ok so its 

Seaton SubM vs Martin Logan Depth i vs Acoustic Energy Pro-Sub vs Genelec 7060 vs 2 x ADAM Sub 10 vs 2 X Focal CMSSub vs Neumann KH810

 

WAF apart - not sure if it will be completely worth it to jump to the next higher price bracket:

Paradigm - Sub 1 vs Martin Logan - Descent i vs Genelec 7070 or 2 x 7060

in which case do other competitors like PMC, ATC enter the picture?

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Upon examining a group of subwoofers, you've got to forget price, ... and focus on what you're getting. Just because a sub is more expensive, even two or three times as expensive, this often has nothing to do with what you're getting. 

 

Your stated interest was $2k, and the SVS, and Rythmik would be difficult to beat at that level. Now if you can afford the Seaton SubMersive, somewhat more than the previous $2k level, I'm not aware of a more appropriate sub for the same money. The amplification is without peer, in my opinion.    

 

Unless you pursue a DIY effort, finding a better option than the above would be a tall order. Of course a DIY approach, has the potential to easily outperform any ready made sub. That is an entirely different discussion.    

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My vote is for the Seaton Submersive as well. I know someone who had the SVS PB13-Ultra which is a very good sub but when he replaced it with the Seaton Submersive it was a very noticeable upgrade and well worth the added price difference. 

 

You should search around the net for the various GTG sub events and the Seaton Submersive and JTR subs are consistently at the top of the list of the best sub. Having had 2 different occasions to hear the Seaton Submersive in different rooms I can tell you without a doubt it is one of the best subs available at it's price. I can beat it with DIY but if that is not an option for you then get a Submersive and know you have one of the top subs available.

 

Just so you know I have personally owned the JL Audio F113, Velodyne HGS18, Vandersteen 2Wq, Revel Sub-15, Bag End Infrasub18, Triad Platinum 18", Von Schweikert sub and a bunch of other high SQ subs in the past before I discovered DIY and the performance advantages to be had. I would put the Seaton Submersive easily in the SQ class of any of the subs I listed and it is a lot better than almost all of them.

 

The Seaton will kick the snot out of the Genelec sub you mentioned, it won't even be close. 

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He's already posted there, just under a different username.  Same exact content and avoidance of suggestions/educational info.

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Folks, the Seaton SubMs are having a hard time with the WAF.
A smaller but 2 sub stereo configuration can clear the WAF than one large SubM...
Seaton may have offered a Compact sub some time back.. any one know the details of that and if he will be offering it in the future?
May be he will do a short production run of some 10" duals subs... 

 

I've been slowly opening up to the idea of a DIY...for which there are many enthusiasts willing to help for nothing more than the thrill of having helped a fellow DIYer.
 
What are the features/parameters that I should expect in my sub?
 
I'm thinking the following:
Must have:
1. 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass.
2. Sealed cabinet - easier to design and build - than having to optimize or tune the port etc which can be quite complex.
3. Low pass filter for drive protection
4. Needs to have XLR, RCA - gold plated inputs 
5. Max. Cabinet dimensions: 18" x 18" x 24"
6. Level control
7. Clipping and Power surge protection
8. Auto-power on signal
9. No compromise on finish and looks etc...
 
 
Nice to haves:
1. Should I consider adding dual passive radiators as well? a quad driver active/passive design?
2. Cross-over adjustment?
3. Is it advisable to use Hard-wood for cabinet instead of MDF? (other than cost - are there any other advantages to MDF - how about an all aluminum cabinet?)
4. Liquid cooled amplifier - like for a PC?
5. Parallel XLR, RCA (pass through same as input) outputs for daisy chaining
6. High pass filter out for connecting the L/R in stereo mode for 2ch music?
 
 
I will probably have to take the DIY ideas/discussions onto a different thread or should I continue to keep this thread active...

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No sarcasm, merely my attempt at humor.

 

It would seem as if we're going in circles here. You received an absolute first class overview of your stated interest, only to gloss over solid recommendations and cling to mythical audiophile beliefs and advertising/marketing double-speak. However, your views are very prevalent, and I'm in the minority in this regard. I fully understand, as there's a huge market segment with such similar values. I get it, there are those that place value on elements that I don't.

 

Upon seeing your tepid interest in DIY subwoofing, and more specifically examining your must haves, I can't help within those stated objectives. Those must haves, and the little bit I know about DIY subwoofing are mutually exclusive. So proceeding down that path would be fruitless.

 

There are forums that cater more to the area of discussion interest that I believe you fall into. Here in these forums, we strive to stick to empirical data, not endless subjective speculation and certainly not the verbose marketing BS that accompany such products like the Ken Kreisel sub you linked to. There are forums heavily populated with like minded enthusiasts.      

 

Thanks

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