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Powersound Audio XV-30FSE Measurements


Ricci

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Measurements of this hefty vented sub are on the site now. It is a big one but it is one of the most powerful 16-100Hz ID subwoofers that I've run across yet. It offers a good value. 

 

Any discussion of this subwoofer or its measurements should go here.

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Thanks for the new set of measurements, Josh.  :)  Glad to see manufacturers willing to get their products tested and vetted in your very comprehensive 3rd-party testing suite.

 

I am curious about two things.  Comparing this and the Rythmik FV15HP, it looks like the measurements are similar, but with the Rythmik being slightly better in output and extension, across the board, for a few hundred bucks less than the PSA XV30Fse.  It's also considerably smaller and lighter, if I'm reading the specs correctly. How would you compare and contrast the two, after measuring and listening to them?

 

Also, do you feel as if a magnetic grill is worth it for manufacturers, or are these pegged grills worth the potential hassle with plastic breaking if they take an impact?  Having built everything in my stable with magnetic grills, it just doesn't appear that difficult or expensive to engineer, and is more durable plus cool when you demo the grills fitting into place seemingly magically.

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I like magnetic grills but I guess they cost a little bit more to manufacture. That's the only reason you don't see them more widespread.

 

Yes the XV-30FSE is pretty close in output to the PB-13U and the FV15HP not to mention the Sub2 and the Funk 18.0. These are the strongest commercial subs I've measured so it is in good company. The only one that is less costly is the FV15HP but after shipping it isn't by much. Really the FV15HP over-achieves because the driver has a ton of stroke (It reminds me of a slightly more built TC Sounds Epic 15) and the servo control helps it keep the distortion down a bit so the driver can be pushed a bit harder in the deep bass without failing the distortion thresholds. Also please note I tested that sub almost 4 years ago and it was one of the very first group of subs tested after aquiring CEA-2010 capability and I didn't yet have my ACO Pacific SPL calibrator and redundant backups. The XV30 is stronger up top and comparable on the bottom for the most part with the PB13U and FV15HP. I suspect the XV-30F is limited by the 800w available amplifier power rather than the drivers for the most part where the FV15HP and PB13U are definitely getting everything out of their single drivers.

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I suspect the XV-30F is limited by the 800w available amplifier power rather than the drivers for the most part where the FV15HP and PB13U are definitely getting everything out of their single drivers.

 

I don't quite understand how the XV-30FSE is amplifier limited and the PB13 is limited by the driver. 

 

From what I understand, the XV-30FSE is distortion limited from 40Hz and below. Giving it more power won't help below <40Hz since it won't pass distortion thresholds, so more power would only produce greater SPL >40Hz (which is already really high)

 

How is the PB13 driver limited when it's maximum output is amplifier limited all the way down to 20Hz? If it is only producing 5% distortion at max 20Hz output (compared to most subwoofers that are producing around 20% distortion at maximum 20Hz output testing), wouldn't that mean the PB13 is severely amplifier limited? 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry been busy...

Well the PS drivers definitely have less excursion than the Ultra or Rhythmik. What I mean is the drivers in those two are producing huge excursions at max output. Even if the distortion seems lower the drivers are making mechanical distress noises and physically can't move much further. The PS drivers are too at some frequencies but what has me wondering are the distortion results. They produce a ton of higher odd order harmonics meanwhile the output isn't really increasing which makes me wonder if the amp isn't being allowed to produce all it can despite large amounts of distortion. I haven't seen that type of result before. Also I have read that the XV30 and XS30 only produce around 3dB more output despite dual drivers which means that the drivers should be driven to less excursion in the dual driver models. The amp is less powerful in the single driver models and the box volume is also much less so the drivers would have to be driven much harder in the single driver versions if the difference is truly only 3dB. I'm guessing at some of this. I don't know for sure. I should be getting an xv15 so we will see what happens there.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Josh,

 

You didn't post the compression graph for this sub. It's easy enough to extrapolate, but the people who like these sorts of subwoofers won't do that and typically ignore compression even if you did include the graph and only look at the top output numbers, even though the 'compression' sweeps are to show, um, compression.

 

I doubt the amplifier in any commercial sub is allowed to run beyond max. When any amp (much less these low end plate amps) is pushed that far it either trips protection circuitry or it dies on the spot. IMO, there's no doubt the protection circuitry in this case is a limiter (or compressor/limiter).

 

I'm not sure why you guys who do outdoor testing run these subs so far into compression? It just gives a false impression of the top speed. IMO, no sub should be pushed past 3dB compression. In any case, the sub shows no increase in output at 20 Hz between the top 2 sweeps, yet distortion quintuples or more. (BTW, that's another peeve of mine... every sub tested gives THD far above your 40% ceiling. The ceiling should be raised to at least 100%. I just never understood posting THD results that don't actually show the THD results).

 

I brought this up several times over the years, that limiters are not transparent protection circuits. Typically, limiters will double distortion from the sweep that really is the maximum the sub can do to the top sweep, which is way past what the sub can do. In the case of this sub, the increase in distortion is a LOT larger increase, with zero increase in output.

 

And, this is all with bandwidth-limited input. What happens when you feed the sub a soundtrack with full bandwidth content to well below 10 Hz?

 

Take out the DIY stuff and the only commercial subs to even post a number at 10 Hz are the P'digm, Velo and Funk. It's nice to pretend the content isn't there or that it's strictly a matter of preference, but that's all bullshit. Play the dragon crash scene in HTTYD at the 120dB sweep input level. Filtering, compressing, limiting and shut-down circuitry is affected by content and playback level and those circuits are not transparent at maximum output levels.

 

And, the effect is not trivial. If someone calibrated his setup to a flat response to 10 Hz and the next day he ran a sweep and found a -7dB hole at 20 Hz and distortion went to triple digits, he'd go at that problem relentlessly until the mystery was solved. Yet, that's exactly what these subs do when playing WOTW "with no problems", except the owners never know it happened.

 

I would prefer the sub shut down rather than give such a poor performance for the sake of a few more dB up top.

 

The "more up top" part is completely irrelevant. No soundtrack of interest to sub enthusiasts uses the 80 Hz crossover region for effect. How loud a sub can play at 100 Hz is non-data. With an 80 Hz cross point, the sub is already down -6dB at 80 Hz and the front sats are sharing that effect with the subs to <60 Hz.

 

Anyway, just throwing it out there again as I've always maintained that the bad effect of limiters is largely ignored and/or denied in the commercial sub arena.

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Hey Dave thanks for pointing out that the compression magnitude data was missing. I've added it.

 

I changed the THD graphs to up them from capping at 30% to 40% a while back and went through and redid every one of them. It's a lot of work. Anyway originally I did look at showing up to 100% but some subs even go well past 100% in the deep bass due to the way that distortion is calculated. These would still be off of the graph. Plus it reduced the amount of detail that could be seen in the area that was actually useful to look at, which are the measurements some 10-15dB lower in drive level than the maximum IMHO. To my way of thinking once past 40% distortion it is all garbage anyway and it doesn't really matter if it is 70% or 170% it's not anything I would find useful. IDK maybe i will look at changing it again in the future.

 

We run the subs so far into compression in order to specifically check whether they will meltdown or detonate. Plus i want to see the maximum capabilites over the full 10-120Hz bandwidth which helps fill in some information that burst testing does not provide. How does the sub react to a signal from WOTW or 9 that is about an octave below and 15dB beyond its capability? This is important stuff for both the consumer and the manufacturer to know. If the homework has been done there is a bunch of compression and maybe some distortion but otherwise the unit is left unharmed and continues on with the rest of the movie. If the limiter is dialed in really well most listeners who don't know or haven't experienced better may not know anything happened at all. This is far preferable to a damaged unit or having it shutdown completely. If it is done right the system has no more output that could be called useful anyway. There is always that dumb ass out there with the tin ears who will buy the product and run it wide open for like 6 hours straight at levels it has no chance of ever reproducing and then complain when something lets go. Manufacturers have to account for this guy.

 

At the end of the day every system has limits. Either the driver/s, the amp, or the limiter. A limiter is arguably better than letting the driver coils smoke, or horrible clanking sounds and mechanical bottoming, or the amplifier hard clipping and distorting heavily or blowing up.

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