Jump to content
maxmercy

The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)

Recommended Posts

Horton Hears a Who:

 

Level - 3 Stars (108.96dB composite)

Extension - 5 stars (2 Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (33.28dB)

Execution - 4 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall - 4.25 Stars

 

Recommendation - Buy (by poll)

 

JSS

post-20-0-45158100-1389573415_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Simpsons Movie:

 

Level - 3 Stars (108.4dB composite)

Extension - 4 Stars (11Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.64dB)

Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall - 3.75 Stars

 

Recommendation - Buy (by poll)

 

JSS

post-20-0-28200100-1389573744_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Horton Hears a Who:

 

Level - 3 Stars (108.96dB composite)

Extension - 5 stars (2 Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (33.28dB)

Execution - TBD

 

Overall - TBD

 

Recommendation - TBD

 

 

JSS

Sick. I knew this one was a good one. Slightly low levels but good stuff. Thanks!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ninja: Shadow of a Tear, aka Ninja 2 (5.1 TrueHD)


Level        - 4 Stars (110.3dB composite)
Extension - 4 Stars (13Hz)
Dynamics - 4 Stars (26.6dB)

Execution - 4 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall     - 4 Stars

 

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

 

Notes:  Watching the scroll in SpecLab, it looks like almost all of the serious content is from 15-40Hz.  Very steeply filtered starting at 20Hz.  Will update when I watch it.

 

PvA:

 

post-17-0-06659100-1389669745_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i will watch saturday...I dont mind 20hz filter...as long as its not 30hz filter..i am happy with a soundtrack...anything else is just gravy :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Golden Compass:

 

Level - 4 Stars (110.65dB)

Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (31.18dB)

Execution - TBD

 

Overall - TBD

 

Recommendation - TBD

 

 

This film has a terrific soundtrack, too bad they couldn't make any sequels....Look at the sweep (attached)

 

JSS

 

 

Horton Hears a Who:

 

Level - 3 Stars (108.96dB composite)

Extension - 5 stars (2 Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (33.28dB)

Execution - TBD

 

Overall - TBD

 

Recommendation - TBD

 

 

JSS

It's good to see (and slightly bizarre lol) that the kids films have good stuff for us big kids adults! :P

 

I need to watch Horton and re-watch Golden Compass...

 

Horton was a Gary Rizzo mix, which I didn't know! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0451079/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carrie (2013) (5.1 DTS-HD MA)


Level        - 4 Stars (112.1dB composite)
Extension - 1 Stars (29Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.3dB)

Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall     - 3.25 Stars

 

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

 

PvA:

 

post-17-0-25550300-1389792298_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Riddick Unrated (5.1 DTS-HD MA)


Level        - 3 Stars (108.5dB composite)
Extension - 1 Stars (27Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (29.93dB)

Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall     - 3 Stars

 

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

 

Notes:  This one leaves a lot on the table, though it does have pretty good dynamics.  To compare it to Pacific Rim, which was also steeply filtered, but at a lower starting point than Riddick, this one is ~10dB lower in total, overall RMS.  That's a lot left on the table compared to PR, though Riddick doesn't suffer nearly as much from compression/limiting.  The overall mix is decent, but was missing a fair bit of surround effects compared to other sci-fi action movies, which was most obvious in the opening action sequences and at the end in the storm - surround effects of wind & rain came in and out of focus intermittently. 

 

Extension only to 27Hz as the -10dB point is weak, and caused the mix to come across as fairly flat-feeling compared to most other action mixes in recent memory.  This was never more evident than near the beginning when Riddick knocks over a large black stone obelisk.  If you've ever been around construction sites, you know that when large, heavy rock or concrete hits the ground, it causes a tremendous sound & pressure wave.  The obelisk in Riddick did nothing of the sort as it fell and broke, partly because the effect had almost everything below 25Hz steeply filtered out.  What was above 25Hz was loud, but not especially realistic because it included none of the powerful energy you feel in person - most of the energy is centered at 45Hz.  Check the graph at the bottom to see what I'm talking about.

 

I think the franchise as a whole is just a vehicle for Vin Diesel to act gruff & tuff, and the movie stinks anyway, so the sound is not really a surprise.  This film isn't something you should own, unless you're a fanboi who's totally in the tank for Vinny and the series.

 

PvA:

 

post-17-0-89304800-1389792438_thumb.png

 

SpecLab scenecap:

 

Obelisk

 

post-17-0-92793300-1389886512_thumb.png

 

Cliff falling

 

post-17-0-68179700-1389887001_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fruitvale Station (5.1 DTS-HD MA)


Level        - 2 Stars (107dB composite)
Extension - 4 Stars (14Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.89dB)

Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall     - 3.5 Stars

 

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

 

Notes:

 

PvA:

 

post-17-0-28883500-1389792613_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're Next (5.1 DTS-HD MA)


Level        - 1 Stars (99.5dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (29.25dB)

Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall     - 3.5 Stars

 

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

 

Notes: 

 

PvA:

 

post-17-0-27739800-1389794726_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Riddick Unrated (5.1 DTS-HD MA)

Level        - 3 Stars (108.5dB composite)

Extension - 1 Stars (27Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (29.93dB)

Execution - Will Poll

 

Overall     - TBD

 

Recommendation - Will Poll

 

Notes:  This one leaves a lot on the table, though it does have pretty good dynamics.  To compare it to Pacific Rim, which was also steeply filtered, but at a lower starting point than Riddick, this one is ~10dB lower in total, overall RMS.  That's a lot left on the table compared to PR, though Riddick doesn't suffer nearly as much from compression/limiting.  The overall mix is decent, but was missing a fair bit of surround effects compared to other sci-fi action movies, which was most obvious in the opening action sequences and at the end in the storm - surround effects of wind & rain came in and out of focus intermittently. 

 

Extension only to 27Hz as the -10dB point is weak, and caused the mix to come across as fairly flat-feeling compared to most other action mixes in recent memory.  This was never more evident than near the beginning when Riddick knocks over a large black stone obelisk.  If you've ever been around construction sites, you know that when large, heavy rock or concrete hits the ground, it causes a tremendous sound & pressure wave.  The obelisk in Riddick did nothing of the sort as it fell and broke, partly because the effect had almost everything below 25Hz steeply filtered out.  What was above 25Hz was loud, but not especially realistic because it included none of the powerful energy you feel in person - most of the energy is centered at 45Hz.  Check the graph at the bottom to see what I'm talking about.

 

I think the franchise as a whole is just a vehicle for Vin Diesel to act gruff & tuff, and the movie stinks anyway, so the sound is not really a surprise.  This film isn't something you should own, unless you're a fanboi whose totally in the tank for Vinny and the series.

 

PvA:

 

attachicon.gifRiddickUR-PvA-HighRes.PNG

 

SpecLab scenecap:

 

Obelisk

 

attachicon.gifRiddickUR-0.11.19-0.11.28.PNG

 

Cliff falling

 

attachicon.gifRiddickUR-0.22.19-0.22.44.PNG

 

FilmMixer explained his views and his mixing process on Riddick over on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/13170#post_24196699

 

 

 

Dave. I've never said I'm against putting it in or that it's harmful when it does get put in.

 

It doesn't just show up, however, and then arbitrarily get taken out.... In a vast majority of cases, it must be put there by intent.

 

Do you rally think that 2% of home theaters can properly reproduce below 16Hz?

 

I would guess it is well less than .5%.

 

Even if we concede that it's 2%, it's been been discussed that dub stages and theaters and studios aren't built to reproduce such content....

 

I know why all those RT tracks that Dave mentioned have the ULF in them that they do... I've also confirmed that the dub stages and design rooms where they were created don't go appreciably lower than the industry standard.

 

My personal option is that I'm not going to spend extra resources creating material I can't properly reproduce in a majority of venues where it will be reproduced

 

I don't get rid of it, but I also don't concern myself with the lack of it on the films I work on. In the end, there are so many more things in soundtracks that add to the experience than ULF almost no one can reproduce.

 

Looking at it another way, if I had a mixing stage that sounded better than 98% of the venues out there, I would make decisions that would adversely effect the track when played back in said places.....

 

...

 

 

So to rephrase your comment, I focus on what I know 99% of people can reprocdcue, rather than the 10hz of material that very few can......

 

In the end, it's just not a point of discussion that comes up with my peers, and the passion gets amplified here by a select few who have a somewhat myopic view on the subject of film sound....

 

I'm a big picture guy...

 

...

 

I do take his point - if the 99% are happy why make life difficult for yourself for the 1% or less - but the full BW stuff is just better IMHO :P lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, Marc doesn't have a point that relates to this thread.

 

Does anyone think WOTW would still have people buying it as BR and any subsequent formats are re-released if it didn't have world-class sound effects/mix because 99.99999999% of consumers think it's a great movie to own or that the mix is perfect for 'most cinemas'?

 

Does anyone think that if Marc were on the team that mixed WOTW he wouldn't be in here lapping up the compliments?

 

His system rolls off >20 Hz and he couldn't care less, in his own words, which is evident in his body of work. That's exactly the same as other folks coming into these threads who own a 25 Hz ported system telling everyone why <25 Hz doesn't matter, quoting completely invented percents of population to try to support their arrogance.

 

I represent 100% of what's important in my HT. Anyone else, whether he be some mixer or the deaf alcoholic guy who lives next door, is irrelevant. 

 

In Marc's case, having a heads up from him as to his mix philosophy, especially the part where he could care less what I think, makes it simple to just avoid wasting time and money on his product. There's nothing else to be gained from me in his going on and on about it.

 

I find his attitude to be generally condescending and of no value. The comment "I'm not trying to be a clone of R[andy] T[hom]" cements it for me. 

 

This is more typical of comments from people "in the industry":

 

Yes, when the Director of Sound Design for Skywalker Sound taps you to co-sound design, you definitely try to put your best foot forward.

This was one of those dream sound jobs where everyone from the directors to the interns was excited about the audio. We all tried very hard to give these characters and creatures their own unique voices.

Randy Thom called and asked me if I’d like to help out with some sound design for a dragon movie.

It was one of those memorable career moments I’ll be telling my grandchildren about.

 

 

I've never read of anyone being so dismissive of RT. Why even bring RT up in his rant? I couldn't care less who this guy is trying to be or not trying to be a clone of. But, for the maverick oner he paints himself to be, he sure refers a lot to hundreds of people in his industry whose opinions matter to him.

 

These are my opinions. I'm not into swallowing them to kiss some knob jockey's rear end. It doesn't matter who brings that whole "you guys are less than a trillionth of a percent, fanatics who don't care about anything but single digits, don't know what you're talking about…" BS to these threads, I'll always react the same. If you're coming at me with that tact, here's a suggestion… have some actual data and a point other than what you imagine the world's population prefers. If this conversation were taken into a thread about native rain forest tribes, 100% of the subjects of the thread would not know what a BluRay is. So what does that have to do with anything in this thread?

 

I mention Randy Thom because in every interview I ever read with him, going back to the late 90s, he never once said he did what he thought 99.9999% of consumers would want him to do. I mention Randy Thom because his body of work and accolades speaks for itself and is so ground breaking I would probably have kept my 30 Hz tuned ported subs from the mid-90s in my HT were it not for his work and those who would not have minded being referred to as a RT clone.

 

Riddick has pretty much been summed perfectly by Nube, with numbers to back his mini-review. Graphs are not necessary and neither is a poll.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, Marc doesn't have a point that relates to this thread.

 

Does anyone think WOTW would still have people buying it as BR and any subsequent formats are re-released if it didn't have world-class sound effects/mix because 99.99999999% of consumers think it's a great movie to own or that the mix is perfect for 'most cinemas'?

 

Does anyone think that if Marc were on the team that mixed WOTW he wouldn't be in here lapping up the compliments?

 

His system rolls off >20 Hz and he couldn't care less, in his own words, which is evident in his body of work. That's exactly the same as other folks coming into these threads who own a 25 Hz ported system telling everyone why <25 Hz doesn't matter, quoting completely invented percents of population to try to support their arrogance.

 

I represent 100% of what's important in my HT. Anyone else, whether he be some mixer or the deaf alcoholic guy who lives next door, is irrelevant. 

 

In Marc's case, having a heads up from him as to his mix philosophy, especially the part where he could care less what I think, makes it simple to just avoid wasting time and money on his product. There's nothing else to be gained from me in his going on and on about it.

 

I find his attitude to be generally condescending and of no value. The comment "I'm not trying to be a clone of R[andy] T[hom]" cements it for me. 

 

This is more typical of comments from people "in the industry":

 

 

I've never read of anyone being so dismissive of RT. Why even bring RT up in his rant? I couldn't care less who this guy is trying to be or not trying to be a clone of. But, for the maverick oner he paints himself to be, he sure refers a lot to hundreds of people in his industry whose opinions matter to him.

 

These are my opinions. I'm not into swallowing them to kiss some knob jockey's rear end. It doesn't matter who brings that whole "you guys are less than a trillionth of a percent, fanatics who don't care about anything but single digits, don't know what you're talking about…" BS to these threads, I'll always react the same. If you're coming at me with that tact, here's a suggestion… have some actual data and a point other than what you imagine the world's population prefers. If this conversation were taken into a thread about native rain forest tribes, 100% of the subjects of the thread would not know what a BluRay is. So what does that have to do with anything in this thread?

 

I mention Randy Thom because in every interview I ever read with him, going back to the late 90s, he never once said he did what he thought 99.9999% of consumers would want him to do. I mention Randy Thom because his body of work and accolades speaks for itself and is so ground breaking I would probably have kept my 30 Hz tuned ported subs from the mid-90s in my HT were it not for his work and those who would not have minded being referred to as a RT clone.

 

Riddick has pretty much been summed perfectly by Nube, with numbers to back his mini-review. Graphs are not necessary and neither is a poll.

 

 

Dave.. I've always been here.

 

You assume that the reason WOTH sells so well (and I'm not sure you have any kind of data to back that up) because of the ULF...

 

It's a fantastic sound job all around, that's why...

 

If you want to say that it's because of the ULF I'll have to call BS on that....

 

You again are ascribing things to me that simply are not true.

 

I know Randy Thom, and have never been dismissive of him.

 

And as I said, just because I don't agree with some of his reasonings for why he uses so much ULF in some of his designs, doesn't mean I don't have the greatest amount of respect for him and his work, and as I've said many times, he is truly someone who taught me so much about sound and helping to tell stories.. probably much more than any one individual..

 

You make such a big deal out of my comments, and it again can simply be boiled down to the fact that I'm of the strong opinion that I want to know what my work is going to sound like with a great deal of certainty... hence I'm not of the opinion that I should be mixing things in I can't hear.. it's my opinion.

 

It's not a personal affront..

 

I just mixed a film with Anna, who mixed WOTW... I am currently mixing with the sound designer who did Insidious 2, The Conjuring and many others...

 

Guess what?  I've spoken to them at length and their opinions are similar to mine....  they don't remove what's given to them, and certainly don't go to any lengths to create such content.

 

You make a lot of assumptions.. like you say "His system rolls off >20 Hz and he couldn't care less, in his own words, which is evident in his body of work."

 

The tuning of our stages is close to the industry standard, so the reasons my work has no ULF has nothing to do with the company I work for (which, BTW, you don't even know who it is at this point, or how good the rooms are.)  

 

I mixed 6 films over the last two years on the same stage where "Black Hawk Down" was mixed....   what does it have to do with what comes out of there...

 

You think you're so clever saying how my comment that I don't want to be a RT clone cements it for you..

 

Guess what, Dave... I'm not a sound designer...

 

Also, I wasn't the FX designer on mixer on Riddick....  I never said it was a ULF film....  

 

That kind of comment shows how little you understand about film sound production in general..

 

You can disparage me all you like....

 

You're the same as countless others I've come across over the years that can only say that it's only, solely, what matters to them that is important.. 

 

But please, again, stop dragging my name through the mud when you think I'm not around..

 

It speaks volumes about your character, and there's a reason you do what you do for a living, and I am able to do what I do.

 

My awards and accolades from my peers mean a bit more to me than your myopic opinion, so in the end, yes, I will let my work speak for itself, graphs or not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave.. I've always been here.

But please, again, stop dragging my name through the mud when you think I'm not around..

 

 

Let's be clear. Whether or not you're around is irrelevant to what I post and where I post it. Really, get a grip with the I thought you weren't around thing.

 

You assume that the reason WOTH sells so well (and I'm not sure you have any kind of data to back that up) because of the ULF...

 

It's a fantastic sound job all around, that's why...

 

If you want to say that it's because of the ULF I'll have to call BS on that….

 

 

First, who said WOTW digital sales/rentals are doing "so well"? I certainly didn't. 

 

Second, I didn't say anything about single digits or ULF. I said: "World class sound effects/mix". I'll add the score into that as well. IOW, the audio portion. OK? Clear enough?

 

Yes, you tend to call BS on many things you take out of context, take the wrong way, twist by adding words to the post and other aspects that you obviously know very little about.

 

You've done the same to several other posters in the past, questioning their audio systems, etc. 

 

And, to state the obvious, the thread title, and its predecessor, @ AVS says nothing about ULF. It's the Master List Of Movies With Bass. See? No mention of ULF or Hertz of any value, let alone single digits.

 

The ratings, after some of us moved the actual data to this forum, are derived from:

 

1. Level

2. Extension

3. Dynamics

4. Execution (a consensus of subjective input)

 

So, you see, even us myopic, clueless fanatics who disconnect out satellite speakers and shut the projector off when we watch movies only have a fraction of 25% influence on the ratings.

 

Some of the criminally myopic in the community actually still prefer to arbitrarily assign a personal star rating to their pet soundtracks, most probably based on their playback capability and frequency response, but, either way…

 

Who the hell are you to name-call, judge and demean them???

 

 

 

You make such a big deal out of my comments, and it again can simply be boiled down to the fact that I'm of the strong opinion that I want to know what my work is going to sound like with a great deal of certainty... hence I'm not of the opinion that I should be mixing things in I can't hear.. it's my opinion.

 

It's not a personal affront..

 

Again, it doesn't boil down to anything regarding your mixing philosophy.

 

My beef goes back to the first time you ranted about how 'you' )to denote you as meaning your entire industry) know all about sound monitor hardware and how 'you' have hundreds of choices from industry suppliers if you cared to install a system that extends BW. You've repeated this mantra of how AVS members have nothing near what you use, and have said so with the same demeaning tone to other members.

 

Hundreds of choices? Name one. Seriously, don't dodge this question as you have in the past, answer it, please.

 

Many of those industry folk have contacted many of us over the years asking us to design products for them. Several of them have hired forum members, most of whom are still employed in the sound reproduction hardware industry. Genelec told Ilkka that they had already seen all of his work in the forums when he offered a packaged version of his accumulated data at his job interview. If the industry had any clue as to how to commercially produce hardware that gets below 30 Hz, we would not have had to do it ourselves.

 

Why might I take it personally when someone tells me they know everything about the state of the art and the sum of my knowledge in this field is less than an afterthought in comparison? Because it's bullshit. Here we are at the Data-Bass site. Josh has tested the JBL 4565-c sub. It boasts the same specs, (+/-) 1dB as Meyer Sound and all of the rest of them. (the single exception being Tom Danley, who gets props for being light years ahead of the rest of the pro sound industry) If there's a pro sound "cinema" subwoofer I'm unaware of, please let us know. 

 

Here's the published FR of the Meyer Sound flagship cinema sub overlaid with the published JBL FR (which includes post-EQ):

 

6306454bf37d5cb8d2941d41df4732fc.jpg

 

The GREEN trace is the published MS FR. The BLUE trace is the published JBL FR with footnotes to let anyone who can read a graph know that they applied both a HPF and a LPF AND post EQ. This was to make the non-subwoofer response appear to be much different than it actually is.

 

Josh's actual measurement of the JBL sub in red and the max burst results in dashed red show 2 important things: 1), the naked response shows that it's no more than a main speaker to those of us who have built systems that include a real HT subwoofer system and 2), as the speaker is pushed to its maximum clean CEA 2010 burst, the burst curve reveals what I knew before it was ever measured; it has no use in soundtrack playback as a subwoofer. It leaves so much on the table that filters and post EQ are not going to salvage it. So much for the industry as a viable choice to reproduce soundtrack content.

 

 

 

I just mixed a film with Anna, who mixed WOTW... I am currently mixing with the sound designer who did Insidious 2, The Conjuring and many others...

 

Guess what?  I've spoken to them at length and their opinions are similar to mine....  they don't remove what's given to them, and certainly don't go to any lengths to create such content.

 

You make a lot of assumptions.. like you say "His system rolls off >20 Hz and he couldn't care less, in his own words, which is evident in his body of work."

 

The tuning of our stages is close to the industry standard, so the reasons my work has no ULF has nothing to do with the company I work for (which, BTW, you don't even know who it is at this point, or how good the rooms are.)  

 

I mixed 6 films over the last two years on the same stage where "Black Hawk Down" was mixed....   what does it have to do with what comes out of there...

 

You think you're so clever saying how my comment that I don't want to be a RT clone cements it for you..

 

Guess what, Dave... I'm not a sound designer...

 

Also, I wasn't the FX designer on mixer on Riddick....  I never said it was a ULF film....  

 

That kind of comment shows how little you understand about film sound production in general..

 

 

OK, there's a bunch of stuff in this section and, again, it's typical of how you twist what I write.

 

First, I'm well aware of the difference between sound design and mixing of the sound designer's work. As a live and studio musician, I designed the sound and the mixer mixed the sound.

 

So, I lack knowledge of mixing of recorded sound because I'm aware that the mixer could change the sound I created through EQ, panning, processors, subharmonic synths and levels? Really? You're the one stuck on single digits and HPFs, not me. I'm also aware that both the mixer and the sound designer can filter the effects. We consumers have no way to know if the filtering was done by the SD or mixer, but we definitely know when it has been filtered and what filter frequency and order of filter was used.

 

For example, watch the vid of the team who did sound design and mixing for Man Of Steel:

 

http://soundworkscollection.com/videos/the-sound-of-man-of-steel

 

They dropped 20 ton slabs of concrete from a crane with microphones placed near where the concrete hit the ground. I guarantee this; unless the result is filtered, either by the limitations of the mic and recording hardware or purposely after the fact via HPF, there is content to DC in the real event. This is not a debatable issue, it's a physical fact.

 

If the finished product rolls off at 30 Hz, then the soundtrack is High Pass Filtered… period. Who the culprit is, what his/her/their reasons were, is irrelevant.

 

It's not a personal affront.

 

 

You can disparage me all you like....

 

You're the same as countless others I've come across over the years that can only say that it's only, solely, what matters to them that is important.. 

 

It speaks volumes about your character, and there's a reason you do what you do for a living, and I am able to do what I do.

 

 

 

This ^^^^^^^^ is awesome. You accuse me of disparaging you while in the same breath disparaging me.

 

Let's see, I have no chance matching expertise with the likes of JBL or whoever, I have so little knowledge of recorded sound and it's evidenced in my posts, my room is nowhere near the level of sound quality that your sound stage is, my opinion and preferences are myopic, my posts are disparaging, I could never hope to be a sound mixer like you because you get paid to do it and I never have, I am of poor character and I only care about what I care about, like countless others who aren't you.

 

Yeah, nothing disparaging there. Really Marc, is this for real?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×