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The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)

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Max... note that I updated TR with the BR waterfalls. Just like Thor, the BR is +10dB hotter than the DVD, confirmed by voltage, SL and recording software.

 

When I posted the original graphs, made off the rented DVD, I bumped the subs +3dB because the graphs just looked sickly. Here they are, side X side with the BR caps. The BR caps were done with flat calibration (not hot) with the mic at the same location as the DVD caps.

 

The BR is like watching a whole different movie. My room rippled and I saw the voltage limiter kick in on one scene (2nd graph from the top) in which the burst effect rivals any on disc, except for the HTTYD Red Death Crashes into the ground scene and the plane crash scene in WOTW. But pretty damned close. I plan to measure those 3 scenes and will post the comparison.

 

Here's the TR DVD vs BR comparo:

 

 

TotalRecallDVDvsBR_zps08ef5d1e.jpg

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Great work Bosso, we enjoyed Recall a couple nights ago, ... pulse effect, room ripples and all. Can't really speak to the BD vs DVD levels, as we always rent BluRays from Family Video, with no issues. Or we buy BD from Sam's Club (killer pricing). Occasionally, we may get a comedy in DVD form. We did enjoy the comedy The Watch on BD. And without any spoilers, I'll say few comedies rock this type of LF effects, .. a fun romp.

 

Peace

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FOH,

 

The Watch is already in the queue.....

 

Bosso,

 

Wow. +10dB change? I have never seen that much change between BD and DVD, but I am looking at PvA, not overall dBFS levels. What AVR are you running? I run a Denon 2809Ci AVR and Sony BDP-BX2 BluRay player.

 

See below, I found the Fight Club BD to be MUCH HOTTER than the DVD as well.

 

 

JSS

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Fight Club:

Level - 4 Stars (112.3dB composite)
Extension - 3 Stars (16Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (31.63dB)
Execution - 4 Stars - Given its creation date, this film delivers. The rolloff below 30Hz is present, just as it was in The Matrix, and there is some clipping.

Overall - 4 Stars

Recommendation: BUY. This film has a lot of re-watch value, and I notice new things every time I see it...

JSS

post-20-0-36623300-1396400703_thumb.jpg

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Captain America:The First Avenger

Level - 3 Stars (108.58dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (7Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.41dB)
Execution - 4 Stars - One star deducted for being a 30Hz mix except for one effect, good dynamics, though.

Overall - 4.25 Stars

Recommendation - RENT. Good film, but not a whole lot of re-watchability in my opinion. This rating is debatable, and can be chaged. This completes the Avengers lead-up films.

JSS

post-20-0-66693300-1385163203_thumb.jpg

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New development: I may be able to measure overall peak and Leq overall LF dB values for content by running REW at the same time as SpecLab, to better delineate films that use more broad-based, transient effects. I'll test it in the next week or so.

 

JSS

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2 more to add to the queue: Resident Evil Retribution and Halo Forward Until Dawn.

 

Both sounded like they go deep and decently loud. As far as watchability, RER was yet another in the RE chain. More of the same basically. No mindblowing writing here, but a decent popcorn action flick. HFUD starts slow. Real slow. And kind of looks like a made for TV movie, but with better SFX. The footsteps for big bipods though is pretty impressive. More movies need this. Some decent explosions and LFE FX too. Last 1/3 (1/4?) of the movie is decent. Not a great movie, but at least I didn't feel like it was a complete waste of time. Makes me hope they can make a big budget version/sequel (heard of, but never seen or played Halo).

 

With these 2, TR and WOTT, seems 2012 might not have been a total loss for movies with bass after all.

 

 

Max

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With these 2, TR and WOTT, seems 2012 might not have been a total loss for movies with bass after all.

 

 

Also U:A scored VERY well. 2012 overall wasn't bad, but the problem was the films that were highpassed or (to me ) were mixed poorly were some of the most anticipated and also they were good overall films (Avengers, TDKR). TDKR was a similar presentation to what I saw at LieMAX. Even though LieMAX runs their sound system beyond the limit of sounding good (terrible compression and distortion which could be avoided by dialing the system back 3-4dB), the track, even when played back at lower volumes, appears to sound very strained at times. Too bad...

 

My vote for 2012 MWB of the Year is U:A overall, with honorable mention to TR and WotT, too bad WotT was so low in level....but a twist of the volume knob can change that...

 

I think the peak and LeqZ dB levels I will soon be able to capture for each film will shed some light....first test tonight, on TDKR. I will also run some on some Dolby Trailers...

 

JSS

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Damn!

 

So I calibrated REW's SPL logger to keep track of TDKR. It uses EVERY BIT of the available signal level. I am recording RMS peaks of over 116dB and overall signal peaks of 124.7dB. Surprisingly, it extends to 20Hz in several places, but below 20 only really at high level in the intro. Bane's punches contain content down to 18Hz, so not as bad as we originally thought. This may give FOTP a run for it's money Level-wise. Graph later tonight or tomorrow.

 

Bosso, you were right. Those peaks are insane, and they are not isolated. I did Tom Danley's fireworks, and got 105dB RMS peaks and 113dB overall peaks, when run at 0dBRef, off of Soho54's Test DVD. Crazy.

 

JSS

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So I will need to report a bug in REW, as it stopped recording Leq, RMS and peak levels when doing TDKR last night, and I had to restart it twice (I am using the newest Beta version, may need to get the latest stable version, this program gets better all the time!). It did record a peak of 125.1dB, when The Bat descends to EMP the multiple Tumblers, and the highest RMS level at 118.7 when the bridge was blown as James Gordon Leavitt's character is trying to get the kids over the bridge. The absolute maximum level that can be encoded on a 5.1 disc is 125.3dB. This very nearly got there.

 

What we are seeing is definitive use of LCRS with the same signal as LFE in phase, with bass managed summing. The high pass at 30Hz serves very well to make this film SEEM louder due to ELC. In the words of Yoda:

 

"Begun, the loudness war has"

 

Graph tonight.

 

JSS

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Was TASM ever updated? I thought it the same cutback on the DVD LFE VS BR LFE channel as TR, or am I wrong here?

 

You're right. DVD is much weaker than the BR. I updated the original posted doc and added the scene in the subway, but I can only update the original post. Max has to update the linked doc.

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You're right. DVD is much weaker than the BR. I updated the original posted doc and added the scene in the subway, but I can only update the original post. Max has to update the linked doc.

 

Does that mean the ratings should be revised, too?

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I don't think so, Max goes through each movie himself and unless he also took the DVD as a reference, the results should be correct.

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Actually, there's only one rating I don't agree with, and that's immortals. The clipping is there without a doubt, but I don't mind the effect. What I do like about that movie is the massive amount of ULF (<20hz) goodness, which is there in quantity, and even surpasses every other bass movie out there in level. Just for that I believe it deserves an extra star in execution.

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I'll link the new TASM graphs to the ratings post for TASM, thanks for adding the BD content as well, Bosso!

Now, for a surprise:
 

TDKRTitleBlock_zps87924b9a.JPG

TDKR1_zpsff0f2fa1.JPG

TDKR2_zps7d0d0f86.JPG

TDKR3_zps70817f85.JPG

TDKR4_zps5c077df5.JPG

TDKR5_zps9f154e77.JPG

The Dark Knight Rises:

Even with corrected levels, this is still a monster.

Level - 5 Stars (114.92dB!!!)
Extension - 5 Stars (8Hz)
Dynamics - 4 Stars (27.16dB)
Execution - 3 Stars - A majority of the film is highpassed, take a look at the average graph. But note that the levels are so high that even while highpassed, a good bit of ULF is present (check the PvA graph below). The sound is done poorly in this film, bass included. One star for the highpass, one star for lack of crispness and overall 'honky' and 'compressed' sound of the track as a whole. While without doubt the loudest bass movie ever recorded, it lacks quality. I mean, does the damn score have to be blaring at nearly 95dB while dialogue is going on? Crazy.

 

Overall - 4.25 Stars

Recommendation - Definitely Rent. This track will test any system, but could have been so much better.

JSS

post-17-0-01012900-1397277912_thumb.png

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Actually, there's only one rating I don't agree with, and that's immortals. The clipping is there without a doubt, but I don't mind the effect. What I do like about that movie is the massive amount of ULF (<20hz) goodness, which is there in quantity, and even surpasses every other bass movie out there in level. Just for that I believe it deserves an extra star in execution.

 

It does have tons of ULF. Anyone else want to bump Immortals up to 4-Star execution? More 'ayes' than 'nays' will change the rating. I am on the fence on this one....

 

JSS

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I'll link the new TASM graphs to the ratings post for TASM, thanks for adding the BD content as well, Bosso!

 

Now, for a surprise:

 

The Dark Knight Returns:

 

Level - 5 Stars (281.71dBHz)!!!!!!!!!

Extension - 3 Stars (18Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (27.8dB)

Execution - 3 Stars - A majority of the film is highpassed, take a look at the average graph. But note that the levels are so high that even while highpassed, a good bit of ULF is present (check the MaxMin graphs below). The sound is done poorly in this film, bass included. One star for the highpass, one star for lack of crispness and overall 'honky' and 'compressed' sound of the track as a whole. While without doubt the loudest bass movie ever recorded, it lacks quality. I mean, does the damn score have to be blaring at nearly 95dB while dialogue is going on? Crazy. I had to increase the dB scales for both the PvA and the MaxMin graphs to accomodate this film.

 

Overall - 4 Stars

 

Recommendation - Definitely Rent. This track will test any system, but could have been so much better.

 

Please see the comaprison to WotW and FotP.

 

JSS

 

Max, I was going to comment on the sound track but noticed you mentioned it just as I was hitting 'quote' lol. It was such a bad sounding track and lacking in definition, it almost sucked having to listen to it. (imho) Of course don't say that on AVS, I tried but a quite a few people thought it sounded great. Go figure.

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It does have tons of ULF. Anyone else want to bump Immortals up to 4-Star execution? More 'ayes' than 'nays' will change the rating. I am on the fence on this one....

 

JSS

 

I recall liking it, I wouldn't be embarassed to say 4 for execution.

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Regarding The DKR, I'm going to have to rent this to find out what you're referring to.

 

"The sound is done poorly ... lack of crispness and overall 'honky' and 'compressed' sound ... it lacks quality"

 

The above, for a major release, seems bizzare to me. I mean, regardless of budget, the sound found on DVD/BD releases of films is typically acceptable in the audible characteristics of "crispness", "honky", and "compressed sounding".

 

That's just not acceptable, wth is going on? Especially the high passing, don't get it ... then again never heard/read it really explained by anyone.

 

 

Now this;

"does the damn score have to be blaring at nearly 95dB while dialogue is going on?"

can be merely artistic decision, mistake, who knows ... whatever. Different strokes

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Since this is my first post, I'kk begin by saying hi. I really appreciate the tremendous effort that has gone into the graphs and such. This is truly an invaluable resource to have. As a result of seeing the graphs, I know now why Avengers doesn't rock me with great LFE extension. Also the loudness issue with TDKR is clearer as well.What's truly disturbing is the HPF that seems to be becoming an issue. I sincerely hope that this isn't becoming the standard to which we will have to deal with. I look forward to seeing more results in the future and I like the tone and maturity of this thread a lot better than the abysmal one on AVS. Keep up the fine work guys.

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Welcome reddman!

 

The highpassing issue looks like it hits certain releases and not others, it almost seems random, but two of the biggest releases (Avengers&TDKR) were high passed, TDKR to a lesser extent. Avengers is a better sounding mix, IMO, but the highpassing took the guts out of it. MIB3 and Battleship also were high passed, but we had some good extension this year as well, TASM, TR, U:A, WotT come to mind.

 

I really believe we got the theatrical mix for TDKR. It definitely pulls no punches, and there is not any near field mixing room has subs that can throw out 125dB that I know of. It also sounded very similar to my theatrical experience, but the addition of the ULF material in the prologue scene was great in my basement.

 

One thing that theatrical mixes on BD have is the fact that there are hardly any theatrical LCR and Surround speakers that can go below 40Hz, and all of that gets redirected to the sub in a bass managed setup, requiring very capable subwoofer support in home.

 

I remember discussing LF support in theaters with John Allen of HPS4000, whose horn-loaded main speakers are impressive at 109dB sensitivity, but that only dig to 40Hz with their ~45Hz tuning. The HPS4000 sub system is simply more of the same horn subs, that can reach a little lower due to mutual horn coupling. I'll see if I can dig up the conversation, but he did not have much to say about content below, noting that 35Hz and above were still 'subwoofer frequencies'. Don't get me wrong: I think his approach to headroom is awesome, and he designs systems that will have 6-8dB of headroom when asked to play at peak volumes. There is an HPS4000 theater about 3.5 hours from me, and I may check it out sometime. If he had some 15-20Hz tapped or front-loaded horns to beef up that LFE channel below the 45Hz horns it would make for the best theater systems anywhere.

 

Mr Allen also sets up each theater with a modified X-Curve and custom acoustic treatment, and I would like to hear the difference, as I think the X-Curve to be an outdated solution to theater alignment. He has a tremendous article on his site titled 'The Mythical X-Curve'. Good reading.

 

JSS

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