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m_ms

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Everything posted by m_ms

  1. Oh well, the ever-delayed two MicroWrecker's of @lilmike will now see completion (dare I say it?) on Wednesday. Pics - a few, at least - should start rolling in Monday or Tuesday. The main reasons for the delay are: an extremely busy cabinet maker (working at a theater with some big productions just about to premiere), and that the CNC-cut panels had two of them, the driver panels, with a wrongly aligned driver hole cut-out (driver panels have been re-cut). Fortunately everything else fits perfectly, and the assembly has slowly started up (to speed up from Monday). A few days ago we double-checked the fit of the holes for the driver bolts. Speakon terminals will by mounted at the bottom tilted back panel. 13-ply birch looks great. Initial pic of the B&C 15TBX100 on the driver panel for screw hole mark-up, and two CAD-pics of the MW attached.
  2. m_ms

    MicroWrecker build thread

    Construction quality of the building is likely the primary reason for the neighbors not being rattled out of their minds, indeed, added to (fortunate) inventory layout of my neighbors homes and how they relate to the placement of my listening room. In other words: luck is also a factor here, I guess. Had a near DEFCON 1 moment earlier this evening. Being that I need a rack build over the on-the-side-lying MW between the main speakers I thought I would just manually measure out the height of the MW, and somehow surprised by the number I saw was later horrified when my measurement didn't correspond to that of @lilmike's orig. Sketch-Up drawing. I was devastated, panicked, made more measurements, all of which were off - what the hell would all this effort be worth with a pair of huge, heavy bass horns with a likely misaligned horn expansion?! I was shut down for over an hour - close to weeping even. Desperate I contacted Simon Mears (who made the CAD-drawings from Mike's orig. plans, and is also the man behind my main speakers), and he gave me the height spec from his CAD drawing: some 1206mm's. Hey, this corresponded precisely with my own actual measurement, which veered off from what I thought should be about 1170mm's. Another measurement from Simon as requested from me of the horn mouth, and that fit my measurement to the mm as well. I then divided Simon's measurements in mm's with those from Mike in inches, and got 2,54. Blood went to my head again - I had used the crude 2,50 as a conversion value from US inches to mm, and with the correct 2,54 value all actual measurements were spot on down to the damn millimeter. Now I was even closer to weeping - the day's small miracle!
  3. m_ms

    MicroWrecker build thread

    Two pics of the MW's in my listening room, only partly unwrapped (and not oil-finished). I also placed the B&C driver in one of them just for fun. The Uccello main speakers aren't small by any measure, or so I thought.. The plan is for one of the MW's to be placed on its side between the Uccello's, and the second MW against the rear wall behind the listening sofa. We'll see how that fares. After the clear oil finish the MW's should attain a light-golden appearance not too far from the mains. I like the look of good, "naked" quality ply.
  4. m_ms

    MicroWrecker build thread

    Haha, what a great reply from your wife As I just replied to Ricci, the MW's may prove a challenge re: neighbors. But so far they've been very tolerant. Good answer. Indeed Denmark is a small country. I know of one in the whole of this country (Norway, different matter) - yes, only one who's using horn subs in his home setup. I'm sure there're more of them out there, but I bet they're far between. The one I do know has an awesome all-horn setup (all-horn from top to bottom is even more rare): 4-6 FLH's (can't remember how many exactly) with a 15" Fane Colossus driver in each that extends to 25Hz, and paper horns from Inlow. All active. Subs take up some 4 square meters total volume. Impressive..
  5. m_ms

    MicroWrecker build thread

    When I used the SVS SB16-Ultra over the entirety of my ownership of it (i.e.: about a year and a half), I had not once received a complaint from the neighbor above or below. And believe me, I've watched countless Blu-ray films and given them a good run, music as well. I know, compared to you guys and the subs you're used to this may equate to iPhone-levels, but still. It even got so far that I wondered why my neighbors didn't complain, so I asked them to their faces, several times: "Have my watching films and listening to music ever bothered you?" Their answer, repeatedly: No, no and no. Color me surprised. I see you're already on your way to the keyboard wanting to let me know 2 MicroWreckers vs. a single SB16 is like comparing a ship cannon to a bebe gun. Granted, I may invite hell and flynders here with the MW's - I hope not. Oh, btw. - the MW's were safely transported to our 2nd floor apartment. The cabinet maker and I fought for it, but we succeeded. Now I only need to sand the edges a bit, and apply a clear oil. Then comes the mounting of the drivers. And did I say the MW's are huge? Heavens..
  6. m_ms

    MicroWrecker build thread

    It would be interesting nonetheless to do a comparison between a MW and a 24" sealed sub From what I can read here and there the magnifying power of something like a tapped horn is in the vicinity of factor 3 (or even more), so a 15" in a TH would roughly equate into two 18" direct radiating units or thereabouts? Reading through the big "Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit"-thread though it's quite obvious the DTS-10 sports a different kind of overall sound delivery and impact compared to a series of 18" DR's (poster 'MKtheater' in particular provided a lot of intel in the form of actual listening impressions here), which points to the tapped horn itself as something that leads to a distinctive bass imprinting (which, perhaps, could also be said about direct radiating solutions, so not to hand a "character-baton" to TH's as such). On a side note I saw my completed MW's today (at the cabinet maker's workshop at a local theater), that is: one of them only needed some clear oil and finishing touches around the edges, while the second one had just been assembled today and was still wrapped in clamps. What dawned on me though when I finally laid eyes on them "in the flesh," so to speak, was their sheer size. Holy freakin' moly - they're huge..! 😱 I've measured out these things at home to plan for their placement, but nothing prepared me for the solid surfaces of these when I finally saw them for real. Subjectively they look something like 50% bigger than I'd imagined. A lighting technician from the theater came by as the cabinet maker and I stood there looking at the (almost) finished MW, me still in amazement, and wryly asked: "Isn't one of them enough?" Having now been confronted with the sight of these I hesitated a bit, then replied: "Ooh yes, certainly going by the sheer output this will be able to produce, but.. " and then followed a less than convincing speech, possibly because I now felt it to be quite hilarious, about smoother room respons with 2 differently placed subs (or more) and all that jazz. Needless to say the lighting technician seemed skeptical about my explanation. With a smile on his face the cabinet maker then followed with the question "For how long will you be allowed to keep these, and at what cost?" We just laughed Tomorrow they'll be transported to our home, a second floor apartment. More to come, if we'll survive the endeavor of getting them up the stairs..
  7. m_ms

    MicroWrecker build thread

    Finally some pics of the assembly process. The MW's of @lilmike are finished on Wednesday.
  8. m_ms

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Looking forward to that indeed 😎 Truth be told I'm absolutely clueless as to what awaits me with the MW's. My last sub was a single SVS SB16-Ultra - no slouch by any means relative to its size, and quite musical - so I take it I'm in for a change, safe to say, with a pair of horn subs each fitted with a driver the same size as the one used in the SVS. Overall impact comes to mind here.. 😬 I did contemplate adding a second SB16, which I'm sure would've made for a very good result, by why not try something altogether different (and more powerful) while you're at it (I'm rather drawn to pro-style sub bass), for what will amount to the same-ish sum of investment? Further off topic (sorry, Mr. Ricci): have you ever heard Danley's TH-50, and if so how did you like it? I know the MW's are inspired by it (as is the Ghorn, I guess), so maybe some impressions of the TH-50 would give me a slight bearing - if indeed this model is anything to go by in relation to the MW's. Yeah, 25Hz Ricci-measured response from the SKhorn could well turn out to be quite sufficient with movies when all has been said and done with the contribution of room gain. I do have concrete walls in my listening room, but hardwood floor and a ceiling material I'm not aware of (my guess is some kind of plaster), so what that does for room gain I couldn't say. If memory serves me correct you're using a total of four 21" units (sealed?) for your subs, right? Using only little imagination I take it those could potentially level your home at "full tilt" or war volume as well? I believe a pair of MW's with the B&C 15TBX100 (which per lilmike is mechanically limited in the MW at about 600 watts) could hit 130dB's with 400 watts, so perhaps in the same ballpark compared to your setup
  9. m_ms

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Got it - re: whether the SKhorn is a horn or not. It's impressive what it does with a relatively limited size, and split up in two has a form factor that would suite my environment quite well. The measurements look excellent too. I'd use it with the B&C 21DS115's to shave off some expense (instead of the siblings 21WS152 or IPAL), perhaps also to deliver a slightly smoother measured response (?), but only because I'm under the impression this unit wouldn't compromise overall performance too severely (certainly not for my use); otherwise there wouldn't be any point in building them. But as it is I won't be building them - at least, not anytime soon Right now my focus is getting to implement the two MicroWreckers, which are planned to finally be finished by next weekend (I know it's not a build by Ricci, but might still deliver a build-threat here when they're finished). Exactly; while not completely sure - because really, how deep does 25Hz feel? - my gut feeling tells me the SKhorn would be slightly lacking with movie-playback, at least some of them, while being potentially better in the opposite end of its operating range compared to the MW. That being said I won't deny horns intrigue me the most (as I'm sure is quite obvious by now), and one of the technical reasons for my preference for TH's over FLH is excursion minima at the tuning frequency, while offering better extension for a given horn size (my listening space is limited, after all). I'm sure the SKhorn is an awesome sub - even without being a horn What fascinates me about horn bass though, and where I feel it differs to the sealed and ported designs I've heard (haven't heard 6th order BP iterations), is a distinctive smoothness or buttery liquidity even. I'm thinking it has to do with very little smear/good transient ability, high-ish sensitivity and ease. With the bass heads lurking around here and an experience far exceeding mine I suppose I should eat up my preconceptions and accept that other principles than horns can provide great bass, but is it the same as horn bass? That I'm not convinced of. For now I'm hoping the MW's will integrate well with my all-horn mains with an 80-100Hz low pass. That's an interesting solution that I'll keep in mind, mixing the SKhorn with a more depth-capable solution for movies, but it would hardly be manageable in my current listening room. Maybe at some point I'll realize giving up extension below 25Hz is the most acceptable compromise with the SKhorns only - we'll see. The M.A.U.L however - good Lord. LOL! Or was that Darth M.A.U.L.? That's one mean beast I'd never dare getting my hands dirty with 😲 I mean, 250 kg's?! But, down to 15Hz - job done in that department.
  10. m_ms

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Are you implying I'm "obsessing" about terminology? My point was simply to call for a comparison between the OThorn and SKhorn while having some tech background to possibly support the discrepancies found here, but apparently that's a touchy subject (or, granted, irrelevant). Oh, Mr. Ricci just confirmed the SKhorn isn't a horn at all, so there you have it.. Force multiplication, as it applies as a descriptor of the horn effect, to my mind is equally about effective air radiation area and how it couples to the air (what you mean by "acoustic loading"?). I've read of a number of cases where multiple direct radiating woofers, large ones at that (typically 18" or bigger), have been deemed to not better or even loose steam against horn-loaded bass augmentation - that is, where the latter used smaller diameter units in (much) fewer numbers. Following the need for nuance, as you pointed out earlier, I can't see how this's simply about efficiency dialed up via the horn. The horn being a megaphone as such also makes a given driver diameter appear much bigger at the horn mouth (and beyond it), but there's directivity at play as well and how this further affects how the sound is loaded or "carried" through the air, and ultimately perceived by the listener. Listening to direct radiators often feels like the sound looses energy and impact on its way to the ear/body vs. horn sound that somehow "latches on" to the air for a more visceral feel. More efficient direct radiating drivers alone wouldn't help to accomplish this effect. So, in a sense the force multiplier is comprised in a threefold way: efficiency + air radiation area + acoustic loading (for a horn) and how this couples the sound to the air (the gradual impedance matching from throat to mouth). If there's a more or less precise numeric value for how to assess the increase of air radiation area from driver cone to the accumulated horn response in front of it, I take it the acoustic impedance matching, and what this means for sound "carriance"/directivity, adds yet another "amplification layer" of how the sound is actually perceived. Of course, all of this may as well be a giant pile of B.S. Every waveguide is a horn, but not necessarily vice versa - or something along those lines. I've owned 3 terminology-coined "waveguide" speakers prior to my current all-horn mains - from Amphion, S.P. Technology and hORNS (Polish) - and I was especially fond of the latter two. Going by terminology obsession and the supposed traits of waveguides, which I'm aware of, I should've gone from horns (that aren't waveguides) to waveguides, but the opposite is the case. Hmm.. That's not for lack of acknowledging the virtues of waveguides, but because the overall Tractrix + folded horn design with my current speakers sounded better to my ears. Needless to say: if a pair of split-up SKhorns sounded better to my ears compared to some horn iteration (TH, FLH, whatever), of course I'd be going with the former. Going with the MicroWreckers, being tapped horns, instead of the SKhorn option comes down to two things: the MW's extending a bit deeper to cater to Blu-ray/UHD movie-playback, and being overall cheaper (cheaper drivers). Not least lilmike, just like Ricci, appears to be a very capable tapped horn, BP or other developer. Admittedly, being that I've had no opportunity to listen to either beforehand, I've been more intrigued with tapped horns than anything else (ports compress, sealed is boring (and inefficient), and all that jazz).
  11. m_ms

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Thanks for this run-down - indeed interesting info. It seems to confirm I'm hitting a compromise with the MicroWrecker, tuned some 5Hz below the OThorn(and SKhorn?) and 5Hz above the lilWrecker and similar TH "company." Attached is a simulation of the B&C 15TBX100 in the MW at 200 watts, 1pi measurement. Sensitivity sits at approx. 97dB's with this unit. There's a clear 80Hz spike, but I'm not sure how that'll translate to the actual real-world performance. I'd like to experiment with a 100Hz low-pass to relieve my all-horn mains from some bass duties, but maybe that's a bit optimistic. Being that the SKhorn is not really a horn (not even a variant of sorts?), does that mean the fitted driver is not "force multiplied" as would otherwise be the case via a typical horn loading? How for example would one section (with one 21" driver) of a spilt-in-two SKhorn fare against a single 21"-fitted OThorn (let's just say using the same driver, B&C 21SW152, to make comparisons easier)? Since pressure from both sides of the cone is also used in the SKhorn (though without being horn loaded in a similar fashion at one side as in a TH like the OThorn), I imagine they're not that far apart. Also, looking at the innards of the SKhorn it does seem there's a short loading at the front side of the cone.
  12. m_ms

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Reading up on this thread one gets the feeling that a "low corner" below some 25-30Hz for subs used for music augmentation - TH's, FLH's and 6th order BP perhaps in particular - may even be inadvisable if the most "musical" and best-integrated sound (with the mains) is sought. Is there any truth to this? Tapped horns are said to be particularly bandwidth limited, so that the likes of Ghorn, LOWAR horn and lilWrecker TH's (all tuned at or below 20Hz) have a hard time reaching 100Hz without being EQ'd here. However, for as long as they're used within their "safety zone" in the upper region of their frequency span (say, up to 60-80Hz), not least high-passed accordingly, does that necessarily place any hindrance for them being excellent as music subs? Or is there an inherent flaw - typically, at least - with subs that are tuned below 20Hz, or maybe even higher, that makes them less than ideal for music? Of course, if music is the primary source why bother with <20Hz reproduction, save perhaps organ freaks and their desire to reach into infrasonics? Cinema subs for the home environment are often preferred when having strong 10-20Hz output, which rules out a lot of horn varieties or other high(er) sensitivity pro-style options (like the SKhorn). Although, I may have to reassess the need for ULF-capabilities for Home Theater use when taking into account that most commercial cinemas use steep high-pass filters below 35-40Hz (except IMAX), and then suddenly strong bass reproduction down to 25Hz, as seen with the OThorn and SKhorn, isn't so bad after all. As is I'm going with a pair of MicroWrecker's of lilmike, hopefully finished by the end of next week, because they seem to give me both one and the other; strong reproduction to 20Hz (tuned to 22Hz) and up to some 100-120Hz (perhaps with slight EQ needed), to serve both music and films well. Still I'm wondering if I'm pushing a bit too far towards 20Hz to maybe compromise music reproduction. Maybe the lesson learned is to avoid both/and here, and instead seek either/or - with all that entails. The SKhorn is a close runners-up as a music-mostly sub, split up in two, but maybe that's the next build to embark on some years ahead.. Oh, perhaps I need to reveal that my priorities in regards to music and films (Blu-ray/UHD) is some 60/40. So, I do prefer having the subs dialed in for music first and foremost, but the added weight, physical presence and palpability of having reproduction capabilities down to 20Hz (or even lower) with films is quite addictive. /Mikael
  13. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Hi there, First post. I'm thinking of getting the Othorn build for my 2-channel setup. My main speakers are the all-horn Simon Mears Audio Uccello's, and they're augmented downwards with a single SVS SB16-Ultra. Low-pass is 62Hz, and I'm running the mains without a high-pass - that is, full range. My listening room is some 1,900 cu ft with concrete walls and hardwood floor, and the SVS is placed between my main speakers (see picture). My setup is for both music and HT (I have a 127" fixed frame screen), but my main priority is getting the integration between the mains and sub(s) right. The SB16-Ultra is no slouch for its size and integrates fairly well my main horn speakers, not least due to a friend of mine who's got great ears and is just brilliant at fine tuning and integrating subs and setups as a whole. That said it is still evident that the SVS speaks with a slightly different voice than my main speakers, and I'm therefore pondering the implementation of a horn sub. The question is though: which shall it be? From what I've read of the Othorn it makes great bass within its specific frequency range, and I'm thinking it may be a shoe-in with my main horns. It's a 28Hz horn though, and that begs the question whether it'll fill in sufficiently and go deep enough for HT-use? Different individuals different needs; in my case I find the SVS very capable and satisfying with regards to bass depth, and I'm assuming it'll sail past the Othorn in this regard - am I right? On the other hand the Othorn will likely spank the SVS from 25Hz and up - where most material resides. Then there's the Gjallarhorn, which is obviously a deep-bass monster, but I suspect the ringing modes past some 60Hz may prove it to be less viable for a music setup - even with a 60-65Hz low-pass? It's also big and heavy, and being that I/we live in a 2nd floor apartment, well, try and imagine getting a Baltic Birch iteration up those stairs. I quiver at the thought.. I've also conversed with lilmike over at the AVS Forum, who's a most helpful and kind individual with alternative solutions such as the MicroWrecker and others of his creations. Please chime in on the Othorn in particularly, and also whether it can be used with the B&C 21DS115 unit (instead of the sibling 21WS152). /Mikael
  14. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    @SME Will have a follow-up to your reply shortly. May start a separate build-threat next week (or just continue on here), as the ply panels for my MicroWreckers have now been CNC-cut. The cabinet maker I've hired will start the assembly next week, and take some pics of the process. More to come..
  15. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    @SME I'll tie in a small update of mine with above paragraph of yours. I'll receive a Xilica XP-3060 digital crossover within a few days, and will try experimenting with a high-pass of my main horn speakers in the 90-100Hz region once the new subs arrive (the SB16 was sold off just last Sunday). As an outset this will be done with the passive filters in the mains still in the signal path, with the question being if the Xilica is transparent enough being put into the chain. It'll certainly allow for some experimentation here. The next stage, if the above turns out well, would be making the bass horn of my mains active. This way the Xilica will be removed from the signal path of the mids and tweeters, and a separate amp will look directly into the bass driver of the mains horn. I'm thinking this could be a truly capable option that would also relieve the amp for my mains (a Belles SA-30) of bass duties entirely. If this could be implemented in a favorable fashion, together with the upcoming MW tapped horn subs of @lilmike - phew.. I'm not ready to go all-out converting my mains into all-active speakers. Running compression drivers from the midrange on up of some 107-109dB sensitivity active is a magnifier of very audible noise. Perhaps at a (much) later juncture. The build of my MW subs is somewhat delayed. If all goes well they'll be ready in 3 weeks time. Fingers crossed on everything turning out well here. /Mikael
  16. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    A bit coming up - thanks for the interest This project is taking its time to coalesce, sorry about that, but things are slowly beginning to fall into place. The B&C 15TBX100 drivers landed some weeks ago, and are just sitting there in their boxes waiting for further action. And just today I've bought a used Crown Macro-Tech 1200 power amp (300 conservatively rated watts/8 ohms) for use with my upcoming MicroWreckers. I know, the (old) Macro-Tech series are no youngsters anymore, but I friend of mine recommended them despite this fact. Then there's the built-in fans, which supposedly turn into helicopters sound-wise, so we'll have to find a way to mod these somehow for quieter operation. The DSP section for the Micro's will not be a Mini-DSP iteration as once pondered, but instead one of Xilica's offerings (a friend of mine uses a Xilica in his all-active DSP setup, with great results). They're more expensive, yes, but frankly more capable, and I'm thinking whether to jump for an option that will allow for a future all-active setup with my main horn speakers. I'm guessing though that won't happen anytime soon, if at all.. The build itself of the Micro's will commence in some 3 weeks time. The 18mm 11-layer Russian Birch ply panels will be CNC cut (CAD-drawings have just been sent off), and then a cabinet maker I know well will assemble them with fitting joinery for a more rugged enclosure. Will post some pics once we're getting there.. /Mikael
  17. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Just a small update: My horn sub project in the form of @lilmike's MicroWrecker tapped horn has been initiated. I've ordered two B&C 15TBX100 15" drivers for a pair of Micro's, so plenty of headroom should be available. They'll be build in 11-layer Russian birch ply by a cabinet maker I know. Amp and DSP solution as of yet not determined.. /Mikael
  18. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Room response is of great importance, indeed, and it's an area I as well try and gain more knowledge about. Poster @SME seems to be quite well-versed here, among others. It would also be interesting going for a pair of 21" direct radiating subs - like, fitted with the B&C 21DS115-4 unit - but that would be a different challenge again. Depending on their implementation they'd likely go deeper than a horn solution, while needing little cone movement to set things in motion, so to speak. Economically a sub like the Microwrecker would be able to produce great output and impact for less money, it seems, safe perhaps for some compromise in ULF compared to direct radiating solutions. I gather, and wonder, and bla bla bla.. You're not overselling your designs or tapped horns. You're almost not "selling" them at all, so no worries. For all I know tapped horn subs are a relative rarity in the home audio department, and I don't see why they shouldn't gain some popularity or simple acknowledgement.
  19. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    The "multiple smaller subs" solution seems quite popular to attain smooth response, but if by 18" and 24" you're referring to the actual driver diameter of the subs in your own setup, I'd say "smaller subs" is a rather relative term I'd be glad to go with two subs, that would indeed be preferable, but more subs than that I might draw the line and say 'stop.' Reason: with direct radiating subs I wouldn't want to go below 18" diameter units, and with horns say 15" is minimum, all of which points to rather large subs, direct radiating or horns, and having more than two of those in my room is not an option. Weird conjecture? Perhaps, but to hell with it. Others are having fun with their multiple +18"-fitted subs; why shouldn't I crave for a pair I'd like to try out more subs, but again, space limitations.. You're welcome either way I'm not a ported guy either, and truth be told I don't know if I'm a sub-bass horned guy at all. I suspect I am, though, being that my main speakers are all-horn.. It's interesting you didn't notice a difference in impact going from 18" to 24." Maybe this is where the "point of diminishing (headroom) returns" sets in? Thanks for chiming in. (EDIT: Is there a tendency here for the people-in-the-know to recommend a downscaled version of what one seeks, when they themselves, certainly some of them, have setups in moderately sized rooms - with multiple, large diameter driver subs - that would be structurally challenging even in large cinema auditoriums? Just strikes me as a bit odd, but I could be wrong in my observation..)
  20. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks, @lilmike, for trying to keep me at a level of sanity I'm glad that you point this out, as I'm obviously not very well versed into the capabilities of these tapped horn bass beasts (I imagine the ones here mentioned are somewhat more impactful compared to direct radiating 15" subs), and moreover the Microwrecker build would save me some money (cheaper B&C driver and, it seems, a slightly less complex enclosure). How capable do I really need? Good question. To begin with I believe I have the mains to keep up with the Microwrecker: Simon Mears Audio Uccello. They're 105dB sensitive (actually measured 1dB or so higher), and without too much effort I'm sure they could turn out 120dB's - at the listening position. A 15" bass in a folded horn, 2" exit (B&C) midrange compression driver in a Tractrix horn (w/5" diaphragm) + 1" (B&C) tweeter comp. driver - that's part of a recipe comfortable at high SPL's. I take it they'll come up short next the Othorn when it really starts to stretch its legs well beyond 120dB's (I wouldn't go there anyway), but other than that it strikes me as a perfect pairing (just like with the Microwrecker). The Uccello's also, and importantly, have a rather large air radiation area, so in that regard as well I believe they're a good match with these tapped horns. Oh, and not least: they're all-horns and dynamic like few. I don't much care for most horn-hybrids, and I've heard a bunch.. Next, I guess my main goal is subscribing to the "bucket load of headroom" mantra, not least inspired by you guys, and how this translates sonically to more moderate and typical listening levels at 80-90dB's or so. I'm guessing at some point more headroom becomes irrelevant - like, when exceeding 30dB's - and it has been pointed out to me already that the Othorn may qualify in that regard in light of my specific needs and circumstances, like blowing those poor sparrows out of the sky with ship cannons. Occasionally I do go to somewhere between 100-105dB's at the listening position, and so if we strive towards no less than 20dB headroom the Microwrecker is not "shooting above the goal," as I see it - actually it just meets it (as if it weren't enough). However, if we look past max. SPL's the question could be posed, again, as to how the bass is actually perceived at more "normal" listening levels. How would a 21"-fitted tapped horn sound compared to a 15" ditto? Would one be able to register the increased size in driver diameter (and better power handling) via the Othorn as something that would create an even more effortless and impactful "feel"? I don't know. Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions. I do look forward to your upcoming builds! I'm tempted to halt my decision to see what's coming from your hands.. Thanks again for the feedback /Mikael
  21. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Hello, everyone -- Time for an update. I haven't yet initiated my proposed sub build, but could be about to soon. My old main speakers were sold about a month ago, and I have allocated some funds for the sub project. My initial plan was to build two of lilmike's Microwreckers, but I fear my 20 sq. meter listening room will be too crammed with a pair of those, so I'm considering only one sub. Being that the overall physical imprinting of the Othorn is about equal to the Microwrecker and that it houses a bigger driver for more "impact," I strongly consider the Othorn instead - even though it may sacrifice a few hertz at the bottom end. Now I know some here would rather have me looking into a non-horn solution, vented or otherwise, but I'm on a horn mission, so please bear with me in considering the following: The Othorn is build around the B&C 21SW152 (4 ohm version, I guess?), but at a downtick in price the sibling model 21DS115-4 has been mentioned as a viable alternative as well. I gather even with the 21DS115-4 I'll have loads of headroom, but is it worth saving some bucks to go with that driver instead of the 21SW152? Here in Europe the 21WS152 is only about €100 more expensive, so not a deal breaker as such, but I'm still considering the 21DS115-4. It's also 3dB's more sensitive, not that it might matter at all. If money isn't an issue I take it the recommendation is for the 21SW152. However, is the 21DS115-4's only drawback that it has a disadvantage at extreme outputs where its smaller voice coil will start heating up more rapidly, or is there a more general disadvantage, irrespective of SPL, that would have people favor the 21SW152? In principle price is not an issue for me; I just want the most capable solution. The being said I might as well save €100 if for all intends and purposes the 21DS115-4 will do just as well in my situation (and invite my girlfriend out for dinner for the saved bucks). I mean, I wouldn't use the Othorn in an outdoor rig at >75% of its performance envelope. Please chime in. /Mikael
  22. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for your reply, @Kvalsvoll - indeed much appreciated Actually @lilmike's F20 was among the first batch of horn subs I considered (including Mr. @Ricci's 2. runners-up, the Othorn, and Mr. Fitzmaurice's THT), but I have ended up settling on lilmike's MicroWrecker: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1514504-my-lilmike-microwrecker-lilmike-s-plans-thread.html The chosen driver (recommended by lilmike along with a sibling driver) will be the B&C 15TBX100, which should model very well in named horn, and be sufficiently powerful as well. By all accounts an excellent driver in itself. I think you're absolutely right, that if I don't try out the horn route I'll regret it at a later juncture. Being that I intend to build two Micro Wrecker's I hope, and even suspect integration will be a bit easier compared to my single SVS SB16-Ultra. But, that will obviously have to be verified in-use. When a pair of speakers I have (not the Uccello's) are sold I'll initiate the build of two MicroWrecker's, and will gladly report on the progress/process and eventual impressions once they're finished and setup.
  23. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    (just a quick reply - more tomorrow) Wait a minute, why do you automatically assume I don't have a keen eye (i.e.: mind and ear) on the contribution of room resonances/modes, and how to possibly work around them - at least partially as much as efforts, equipment and circumstances permit? I'm not getting at you, but let's not resort to the lowest dominator here; I'm quite aware of the (other) issues you point to, and a friend of mine who's very well versed into sub-integration and the importance of acoustics, indeed integration as a whole, will assist in implementing said subs. Measuring the response is no doubt a big help, and will possibly be done with the upcoming sub solution (my friend has all the gear to use here), but that will only do so much if the trained ear won't be accompanying. That's just our approach. The SVS app has been used extensively in my existing setup, as has a range of small bass traps of different sizes and in different places, fine tuning the placement of the sub with the use of bass sweeps (Nordost CD), phase correction, PEQ and what not - all by ear. Having two subs will likely make integration easier if the intended symmetrical placement against the opposing sidewalls (the long-wall sides) is anything to go by. We're not completely lost on the importance of integration; it's a core parameter indeed.
  24. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    You're not the first here to (implicitly) suggest I should look for another sub solution than horns.. Look, if I don't mind the space a pair of horn subs take up, and I'm mostly aware of some of the "pitfalls" or drawbacks using them (as I believe I have made clear above), then what's the remaining rub? What's sufficient headroom to you - 10, 15dB's? I'd like to aim for 20dB's on up. What would you suggest I build instead of horn subs? Let's not kid ourselves into believing sealed and ported subs are potentially trouble free either, and bear in mind that the OP of mine was inquiring on the Othorns.. I appreciate the well-meant support across the board, but reiterating my preference for horns subs becomes tiresome after a while. I was referring to a passive solution, yes. If I'm to remove the cross-overs from my main speakers and go all-active then that's a rather elaborate undertaking with new amps and more channels, and with the sensitivity at play of those speakers noise issues are readily exposed with the filtering process. I'm actually interested in going the active route, but that's a second "rocket stage" I've yet to delve into, and for now I've only considered implementing a pair of subs with the remaining setup. Suggestions are certainly welcome going active though, so please fire away anyone.
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