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m_ms

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  1. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for your reply, @Kvalsvoll - indeed much appreciated Actually @lilmike's F20 was among the first batch of horn subs I considered (including Mr. @Ricci's 2. runners-up, the Othorn, and Mr. Fitzmaurice's THT), but I have ended up settling on lilmike's MicroWrecker: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1514504-my-lilmike-microwrecker-lilmike-s-plans-thread.html The chosen driver (recommended by lilmike along with a sibling driver) will be the B&C 15TBX100, which should model very well in named horn, and be sufficiently powerful as well. By all accounts an excellent driver in itself. I think you're absolutely right, that if I don't try out the horn route I'll regret it at a later juncture. Being that I intend to build two Micro Wrecker's I hope, and even suspect integration will be a bit easier compared to my single SVS SB16-Ultra. But, that will obviously have to be verified in-use. When a pair of speakers I have (not the Uccello's) are sold I'll initiate the build of two MicroWrecker's, and will gladly report on the progress/process and eventual impressions once they're finished and setup.
  2. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    (just a quick reply - more tomorrow) Wait a minute, why do you automatically assume I don't have a keen eye (i.e.: mind and ear) on the contribution of room resonances/modes, and how to possibly work around them - at least partially as much as efforts, equipment and circumstances permit? I'm not getting at you, but let's not resort to the lowest dominator here; I'm quite aware of the (other) issues you point to, and a friend of mine who's very well versed into sub-integration and the importance of acoustics, indeed integration as a whole, will assist in implementing said subs. Measuring the response is no doubt a big help, and will possibly be done with the upcoming sub solution (my friend has all the gear to use here), but that will only do so much if the trained ear won't be accompanying. That's just our approach. The SVS app has been used extensively in my existing setup, as has a range of small bass traps of different sizes and in different places, fine tuning the placement of the sub with the use of bass sweeps (Nordost CD), phase correction, PEQ and what not - all by ear. Having two subs will likely make integration easier if the intended symmetrical placement against the opposing sidewalls (the long-wall sides) is anything to go by. We're not completely lost on the importance of integration; it's a core parameter indeed.
  3. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    You're not the first here to (implicitly) suggest I should look for another sub solution than horns.. Look, if I don't mind the space a pair of horn subs take up, and I'm mostly aware of some of the "pitfalls" or drawbacks using them (as I believe I have made clear above), then what's the remaining rub? What's sufficient headroom to you - 10, 15dB's? I'd like to aim for 20dB's on up. What would you suggest I build instead of horn subs? Let's not kid ourselves into believing sealed and ported subs are potentially trouble free either, and bear in mind that the OP of mine was inquiring on the Othorns.. I appreciate the well-meant support across the board, but reiterating my preference for horns subs becomes tiresome after a while. I was referring to a passive solution, yes. If I'm to remove the cross-overs from my main speakers and go all-active then that's a rather elaborate undertaking with new amps and more channels, and with the sensitivity at play of those speakers noise issues are readily exposed with the filtering process. I'm actually interested in going the active route, but that's a second "rocket stage" I've yet to delve into, and for now I've only considered implementing a pair of subs with the remaining setup. Suggestions are certainly welcome going active though, so please fire away anyone.
  4. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Duly noted, but I believe I need to stress that a horn sub could as well and in some regards even better a sealed, ported or otherwise solution in filling in the duties in this "equation.," space permitted. I'm convinced that sheer headroom is one of the core parameters where "sound quality" from a sub (and main speakers) goes, and that having loads of this is determining in supplying the ease and relaxed presentation that I've grown so fond of. From what I can understand a horn sub will not easily go below 15Hz unless size and efficiency takes a hit (i.e.: size enters cubic meters), let alone hit 10Hz with brute force, and tapped horns in many iterations I understand are marred by "ringing" artifacts in their upper spectrum, calling for careful and elaborate filtering here. However, a good tapped horn or FLH should cover 20-100Hz from a some 600 liter volume (some 20 cu. ft.?) with a relatively flat response, and let's not forget that honest, high-ish efficiency 20-25Hz bass is deeeep. Important points raised here. One of the main goals of mine initiating the upcoming sub project was to go dual. The easy solution would be simply buying an extra sub similar to the one I have now, the SB16-Ultra, but here in Denmark it retails for some $3,000 - a steep uptick over its US price. I'm sure two of those in my listening room would be a very capable sub setup with more than fair amounts of headroom, certainly for my needs, by I feel it to be an opportunity to go look for a pair of horn subs and see how two of those would blend in and perform in my setup - not least in light of my main speakers being all-horns. The folks over at the Klipsch forum are by and large quite adamant in their recommendation to go for a horn sub, not least when the mains are all-horns, and since many of them use such main speakers (contrary to most "audiophiles") my interest was and still is sparked. I'd actually cherish, certainly as an option, to low-pass a pair of subs in the 80-100Hz range while high-passing my mains as well in freeing them from half an octave here (i.e.: even more headroom!), but there's one problem: the quality of the high-pass filter for the mains. I dare say my main speakers are very high quality (honestly they bowl over a pair of JBL K2 S9900's, who retails for 4x the price of the Uccello's, sans the lowest octave being they roll off below some 60Hz), and there's no way I'm going to let anything other than a VERY high quality high-pass filter get in between here. Period, end of story. If you know any that are fairly priced and, again, VERY high quality, I'm all ears - most certainly. Regarding the phase match I'm glad you brought this up. I intend to place my upcoming subs against the opposing side walls, so that sitting in the listening chair/sofa they're to my left and right and hereby closer to me than my main speakers. This is not the only placement option, but as an outset how would you regard the viability of it? Would I have to delay the signal to the subs this way? Lastly I must point out that the bass horn of my main speakers stop acting like horns below some 100-125Hz, or so I've read over at said Klipsch forum, and that being so I'm thinking whether the roll on the bass isn't 12dB's/octave? Still it's cheaper with horns than going multiple large diameter drivers in sealed cabs. Interesting observations - duly noted. I have wondered whether the MicroWrecker/F20 performance envelope in the deep bass would be sufficient for HT-duties. My own SB16-Ultra easily digs below 20Hz in-room, and singlehandedly can shake my whole listening room with some Blu-ray - quite a thrilling effect. Question is how deep it takes to create this effect? I may compromise here with the MicroWrecker, but I'm not sure. If I do I suspect conversely there are gains in the more audible spectrum of the horns. Yes, and I have no qualms high-passing a sub that low. Lilmike has also let the importance of this come to my attention, if mostly for the reason to avoid distortion artifacts down here.
  5. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    From what I can assess lilmike's MicroWrecker is a competently developed tapped horn (easily the equal of the F20, it seems), and the driver I intend to use here, the B&C 15TBX100, is said to model very well in named horn, apart from being a quality driver in itself. The Wrecker sports a sensitivity of some 96dB's (like the driver), has decent bandwidth, good power handling and an expectedly potent bass "footprint" that far exceeds what a similarly sized driver could do as a typical stand-alone direct radiator, all of which should bode well for ample headroom in my case, not least using two of them. With some extra plywood for a bigger sized enclosure and free plans for a TH readily supplied by lilmike it seems quite some money is saved compared to buying bigger and more expensive drivers, in multitudes (incl. amps), for smaller enclosures for DR use. As I've pointed out I don't mind the extra size of horns, and there is room for them in a variety of positions. As I intend to low pass the Wrecker at some 60-65Hz I don't see how that should pose a problem? I'm not trying to be willful, I just don't see how it applies in my situation. Sealed subs with 18"+ drivers has certainly been on my radar as well and I suspect they can even approach single digit performance (Hz), but by all accounts this will be a more expensive path if going for the same level of headroom. I've hired a cabinet maker to build my subs, and I have a good bearing on the expense for this purpose which, added to the fair priced B&C units mentioned earlier, should make for a cost effective sub solution. I don't know how much one should push for sub 15Hz capabilities, but of course it obviously drives some more than others to achieve this. It certainly comes at a price, one way or the other, and I'd rather have my focus on the 20Hz range and up and have higher SPL capability and headroom than pay dearly for the infrasonics. A 20-25Hz TH should be able to reach close to 15Hz in-room, which is fine by me. In effect, yes, I have made up my mind, but it's not that I won't reach for the hand brake if it seems what I'm after is running at a collision course. Concerning budget it seems the MicroWrecker will be a great bang for the buck, likely even very capable in more absolute terms, and to reiterate: space considerations, while not of no importance, is not an issue. That appears to be one heck of a capable sub-setup you've implemented. Would love to hear it, but I reside in Europe.. By my monetary range and needs I believe the horn approach to be the most appropriate, but obviously I'll have to create some sawdust and trial and error process to see whether it's actually the case.
  6. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Happy to read this
  7. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Mr. Ricci -- I'm sure you're right about calling out in a sense my preconceived stance on ported subs (or at least a stance that's based on limited experience), and that great sounding vented designs are out there - contrary to my experience. For some time now though I've got my head wrapped around implementing a pair of horn subs in my setup, and it's not to say I'm inflexible on other ways to make great bass (hopefully), but I just still don't see any compelling reasons to abandon a horn sub approach. I don't see you, or others here doing that per se, but more that you may try and prevent me from making some bad calls, and for that I'm actually thankful Regarding the size of horn subs, the solution I'm likely to implement, namely lilmike's MicroWrecker, is by no means a shoebox, and I'm sure I'll shake my head in blunt realization once they're eventually placed in my listening room, a pair of them not least, and wonder what the hell I was thinking. I still don't mind their size though (unless it affects the sound negatively), for I have a dedicated listening room, and as such the only thing impractical is getting them transported to the 2nd floor (hopefully without the pale-faced witnessing of my neighbors, with the thought of what they're about to be treated to). One thing that's left out by you is this, perhaps for a very good reason: considering the sound of the subs. Bass is not simply bass, is it? Doesn't the sound from the different horn subs you've made differ, and isn't there something about the Othorn that makes people calling it "the most musical sub" they've ever heard? Perhaps running subs of different designs up to no more than 10-15% of their capabilities will render the bass they produce very similar (if they're all well implemented), I don't know, but I find it hard to believe if one truly and critically listens to them (and I'm not implying you don't). That being said, you're the one with experience here, a lot of it, and that brings me in a disadvantage. To your questions: Budget: $2,500, or thereabouts (for subs) Listening habits: % music / % movies / how loud? 70 / 30 / 65-110dB's (the latter number is the occasional "bursts," not average, with either films or music) How much space can you dedicate to the subwoofers? Listening room is ~1,900 cu. feet Current system / subs / room? NAS drive > SOtM sPS-500 PSU > SOtM sMS-200ultra 12V network player > SOtM sDP-1000 DAC/preamp > Belles SA-30 pure Class-A power amp > Simon Mears Audio Uccello's all-horn main speakers > SVS SB16-Ultra sub (one) What do you hope to improve about the sound of your current system? Integration, the positive of using more than one sub, and that effortless sense of air-vibration, envelopment, and visceral impact
  8. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for chiming in, Kvalsvoll. That's exactly what I'm after. I hope I'll not be far off with my finale choice..
  9. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    I like that expression: war volume. Stretching a pair of horn sub legs like the MicroWrecker in our apartment would likely wreck many a thing indeed (and have our 11-month son somersault)...
  10. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for this elaborate reply, SME. Lot's to process here, and I almost don't know where to start. The information you provide is overwhelming and extremely helpful, and I'm sorry if I'm cutting my response a bit short here (the hour is late, and I'd like to reply to all here before I'll crawl under the duvet). First on whether to go with horns or not, I'm getting the vibe to rather pursue a vented solution due to the relatively restricted size of my listening room, and you wisely call to attention many factors that contribute to the outcome. I'll admit to have never heard a "commercial" horn sub in a domestic environment, and so I'm in no position to counter any advice here given my preference for a horn sub. They're big as hell, and likely so powerful that they could pop out the windows of our apartment if given a "carte blanche" ride. As Mr. Ricci pointed to I might only make use of some 10% of the Othorns in my setup and surroundings, and so why would I ever seek out such a solution (or in that ballpark) when there are factors here that could even be detrimental? One thing to stress: I got all-horn speakers, and it seems to me there's not much talk about how to compliment them the best way downwards with a sub. From a very crude standpoint I take it horns match horns the best. Putting the listening room into the equation is vital feedback, thanks. I'll use your advice for sure. I would have to find one heck of a high-pass filter to put my main speakers through - that's my main concern. Such requires a rather pricey solution I'm sure, and would have to be implemented down the road. Remember my speakers are very sensitive; any noise issues will be swiftly exposed as well.
  11. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for the follow-up, maxmercy - and sorry for the late reply of mine to all here. I will be difficult to assess the right sub-path to embark on here, but my gut feeling tells me to go with horns in some variant. Indeed I feel confident in the likely choice of a pair of lilmike's MicroWrecker tapped horn sub. Little of my decision rests in an actual assessment of the pro's and con's of tapped horns, for it could as well (almost) have been the F20, but I believe the MicroWrecker to be slightly better suited to my needs. One of the deciding factors here came with the realization, prompted by lilmike, that two B&C drivers modelled excellently in named horn, and thus it seems this tapped horn can be brought to great fruition with either driver (I'll go with the B&C 15TBX100). A pair of them in my listening room is overkill, but I'd rather see it as a case of well-needed headroom. Why a pair? Because I want the benefit of more than one sub, headroom included. I was (and still is) very interested in Mr. Ricci's Othorn, but the B&C 21WS152 is simply too expensive for my wallet as is, not giving the opportunity to build a pair of them, and moreover the low corner of the MicroWrecker sits in the low 20's, why I feel to better match HT-duties in addition to music playback. I'm sure a pair of Othorns would've been an absolute crazy delight with sufficient LF-capabilities (indeed an intimidating thought..), but I suspect lilmike's creation will be no slouch in comparison. Decision, decisions. I'll let it be known when the build finally commences (depends on some former main speakers being sold first). /Mikael
  12. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    maxmercy -- The dual F20 solution of lilmike is among the front-runners of mine, so thanks for pointing to them. I'm glad you acknowledge the difference in perceived bass between the different solutions - something I believe is lacking - and also for trying to assess my preference through above posts. Have you ever heard the Othorn, and if so how would you compare it to the F20? I take it you have experience with the latter, and if so how would you describe its bass compared to typical sealed, or direct radiating subs in general? Initially I looked into the THT, but the cheaper build of the F20 made me abandon it, although I'm sure it's quality bass horn as well. The F20 is a some ~20Hz horn, right? That would have it extend somewhat deeper than the Othorn, I presume, and be indeed very worthwhile for HT-duties as well. I'll have to look more into the Skhorn..
  13. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for chiming in, SME, with some interesting observations. Broadly put, I don't want a vented sub to sound like a (typical) vented sub, so in that regard it's clear what I don't look for in a sub sound-wise. My main all-horn speakers (and that's important to point out, that they're all-horn) are sharp as a tack and with very little smear in the mid-upper bass they cover, and I'm simply not going to wrestle with a vented sub solution that goes in the opposite direction. They may not all do so, and if not I haven't heard them. My way though of giving a future vented sub the benefit of the doubt is more a reflection of a relatively limited experience with vented solutions rather than being in the blind of what I want. There's a scent here, if I'm not wrong, that it's not the bass principle that matters - i.e.: whether it's sealed, ported, OB, horn, tapped horn, etc. - but instead the integration and implementation of a sub(s), and one which will further render the specific bass principle a theoretical distinction rather than one of any practical concern. I can't vouch for that per my own experience, but your observation on port tuning at or below 20Hz to make for an almost sealed sound and the use of pro drivers (as recommended by Ricci) has me slightly intrigued here. I'm certainly much more inclined towards the use of a pair of vented and efficient pro driver subs (preferably 18"+) than a more hifi-ish multiples approach. If there options here (on the former) that comes naturally to your mind, let me know. Regarding my SB16 and its "different voice" it appears it has nothing to do with it sounding disjointed or being poorly integrated as such, and its audible effect seems independent of SPL. I find it hard to believe the SB16, in my setup and use at least, is really ever strained to produce distortion that's actually audible, so whatever pulls it in a different direction compared to my mains must be something inherent to the driver specs and construction in combination with the chosen enclosure size/amp/DSP. The sound of the SB16 is very solid, rather tight, weighty and non-resonant, but slightly "contained" as if holding back a bit, and when let loose can be quite thunderous and explosive. If anything its nature shifts from more moderate levels to elevated dittos to a more freed presentation as if being let loose from a harness, in a sense. Through any SPL there's the sensation, and this is purely guessing, that it takes some juice to get the driver going, and it produces a slight thickening/reticence to the (edge of the) bass and the lower registers of voices for example. I also find the SB16 could do a bit better in the roughly 35-65Hz range in being more "energetic" here. And I can say with absolute certainty that my mains aren't strained. They sport a (measured) 105dB's sensitivity and can go excessively loud while being very cool. I don't high-pass them because I find it better to let them run full-range than running them through a filter that likely does more than merely high-pass - i.e.: unless I have the financial means to go all-in here it's moot. Your rundown on the Ghorn and Othorn makes sense. They both cover a range just outside of what I'd want them to - that is, the Othorn may be slightly lacking in the (U)LF department and the Ghorn, as your point out, seems less than ideal in its upper operating range towards the cross-over. That said I'd be more willing to sacrifice ULF (the Ghorn) than proper integration (Othorn). And with regard to the Skhorn that's certainly an option I'll look more into, though it would have to be the "halved" solution.
  14. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Hmm, another recommendation for a vented solution. Thanks, Kvalsvoll, I'll keep it in mind, but I'm not that enthused about the thought of a vented sub in my setup, although I'll gladly stand corrected if there's a treat in the wait here. Somehow though it's an either/or for me; if not a seriously capable overkill horn sub I'd rather "trot along" with the SB16. Really, for what it is and in light of its size the SB16 is rather powerful and quite "musical," and it digs deep. As commercial subs go it's a handy plug-and-play solution, though heavy as hell with its smaller dimensions and gloss finish at some 122Ibs. Oh well, if they're any particular DIY vented sub solutions that comes to your mind with large pro drivers, please enlighten me.
  15. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for the reply, Ricci. I've only briefly, and not very recently considered vented sub solutions, and that in fact only with larger pro-style woofers. For some reason though I keep avoiding vented subs as a more general stance, although it may simply be weird conjecture on my part. What I do think on the matter of vented subs is that they're a less than ideal match with my main speakers for introducing an out-of-phase port contribution (perhaps a TH is doing a similar-ish thing with the output from the backside of the driver in the horn mouth?), and integration with the mains is very important to me. Do you have a particular vented sub solution in mind, preferably with a 21" pro style driver? I know, for all intends and purposes the Othorn is huge overkill for my needs, but that's also part of the rationale; to go after the biggest headroom via high efficiency, overall power handling and large air radiation area - and not least have a horn augment another horn. I'm looking for that totally effortless and relaxed bass imprinting to complement my main horns, but there will of course be a price to pay when achieving high efficiency from a relative compact (tapped-)horn enclosure, and that's the 15-25Hz area where the Ghorn seems to be the Maestro. However, the thought of having the Othorn perform rather admirably from some 20-25Hz and up, and sounding great at that, is indeed very beguiling - size and weight be damned. And with regard to the chosen driver for the Othorn, thanks for pointing out the 21WS152-4 as the preferred match here. I was trying to save a few coins with the less expensive sibling model, but I guess it would defeat the purpose not going all-out and have the driver that fits the best. I've actually never considered the Skhorn (but certainly read of it), let alone half of it - what does that entail? I'm intrigued.
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