Jump to content

m_ms

Members
  • Content count

    23
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    2

m_ms last won the day on September 26

m_ms had the most liked content!

Community Reputation

2 Neutral

About m_ms

  • Rank
    Member
  1. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    A bit coming up - thanks for the interest This project is taking its time to coalesce, sorry about that, but things are slowly beginning to fall into place. The B&C 15TBX100 drivers landed some weeks ago, and are just sitting there in their boxes waiting for further action. And just today I've bought a used Crown Macro-Tech 1200 power amp (300 conservatively rated watts/8 ohms) for use with my upcoming MicroWreckers. I know, the (old) Macro-Tech series are no youngsters anymore, but I friend of mine recommended them despite this fact. Then there's the built-in fans, which supposedly turn into helicopters sound-wise, so we'll have to find a way to mod these somehow for quieter operation. The DSP section for the Micro's will not be a Mini-DSP iteration as once pondered, but instead one of Xilica's offerings (a friend of mine uses a Xilica in his all-active DSP setup, with great results). They're more expensive, yes, but frankly more capable, and I'm thinking whether to jump for an option that will allow for a future all-active setup with my main horn speakers. I'm guessing though that won't happen anytime soon, if at all.. The build itself of the Micro's will commence in some 3 weeks time. The 18mm 11-layer Russian Birch ply panels will be CNC cut (CAD-drawings have just been sent off), and then a cabinet maker I know well will assemble them with fitting joinery for a more rugged enclosure. Will post some pics once we're getting there.. /Mikael
  2. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Just a small update: My horn sub project in the form of @lilmike's MicroWrecker tapped horn has been initiated. I've ordered two B&C 15TBX100 15" drivers for a pair of Micro's, so plenty of headroom should be available. They'll be build in 11-layer Russian birch ply by a cabinet maker I know. Amp and DSP solution as of yet not determined.. /Mikael
  3. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Room response is of great importance, indeed, and it's an area I as well try and gain more knowledge about. Poster @SME seems to be quite well-versed here, among others. It would also be interesting going for a pair of 21" direct radiating subs - like, fitted with the B&C 21DS115-4 unit - but that would be a different challenge again. Depending on their implementation they'd likely go deeper than a horn solution, while needing little cone movement to set things in motion, so to speak. Economically a sub like the Microwrecker would be able to produce great output and impact for less money, it seems, safe perhaps for some compromise in ULF compared to direct radiating solutions. I gather, and wonder, and bla bla bla.. You're not overselling your designs or tapped horns. You're almost not "selling" them at all, so no worries. For all I know tapped horn subs are a relative rarity in the home audio department, and I don't see why they shouldn't gain some popularity or simple acknowledgement.
  4. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    The "multiple smaller subs" solution seems quite popular to attain smooth response, but if by 18" and 24" you're referring to the actual driver diameter of the subs in your own setup, I'd say "smaller subs" is a rather relative term I'd be glad to go with two subs, that would indeed be preferable, but more subs than that I might draw the line and say 'stop.' Reason: with direct radiating subs I wouldn't want to go below 18" diameter units, and with horns say 15" is minimum, all of which points to rather large subs, direct radiating or horns, and having more than two of those in my room is not an option. Weird conjecture? Perhaps, but to hell with it. Others are having fun with their multiple +18"-fitted subs; why shouldn't I crave for a pair I'd like to try out more subs, but again, space limitations.. You're welcome either way I'm not a ported guy either, and truth be told I don't know if I'm a sub-bass horned guy at all. I suspect I am, though, being that my main speakers are all-horn.. It's interesting you didn't notice a difference in impact going from 18" to 24." Maybe this is where the "point of diminishing (headroom) returns" sets in? Thanks for chiming in. (EDIT: Is there a tendency here for the people-in-the-know to recommend a downscaled version of what one seeks, when they themselves, certainly some of them, have setups in moderately sized rooms - with multiple, large diameter driver subs - that would be structurally challenging even in large cinema auditoriums? Just strikes me as a bit odd, but I could be wrong in my observation..)
  5. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks, @lilmike, for trying to keep me at a level of sanity I'm glad that you point this out, as I'm obviously not very well versed into the capabilities of these tapped horn bass beasts (I imagine the ones here mentioned are somewhat more impactful compared to direct radiating 15" subs), and moreover the Microwrecker build would save me some money (cheaper B&C driver and, it seems, a slightly less complex enclosure). How capable do I really need? Good question. To begin with I believe I have the mains to keep up with the Microwrecker: Simon Mears Audio Uccello. They're 105dB sensitive (actually measured 1dB or so higher), and without too much effort I'm sure they could turn out 120dB's - at the listening position. A 15" bass in a folded horn, 2" exit (B&C) midrange compression driver in a Tractrix horn (w/5" diaphragm) + 1" (B&C) tweeter comp. driver - that's part of a recipe comfortable at high SPL's. I take it they'll come up short next the Othorn when it really starts to stretch its legs well beyond 120dB's (I wouldn't go there anyway), but other than that it strikes me as a perfect pairing (just like with the Microwrecker). The Uccello's also, and importantly, have a rather large air radiation area, so in that regard as well I believe they're a good match with these tapped horns. Oh, and not least: they're all-horns and dynamic like few. I don't much care for most horn-hybrids, and I've heard a bunch.. Next, I guess my main goal is subscribing to the "bucket load of headroom" mantra, not least inspired by you guys, and how this translates sonically to more moderate and typical listening levels at 80-90dB's or so. I'm guessing at some point more headroom becomes irrelevant - like, when exceeding 30dB's - and it has been pointed out to me already that the Othorn may qualify in that regard in light of my specific needs and circumstances, like blowing those poor sparrows out of the sky with ship cannons. Occasionally I do go to somewhere between 100-105dB's at the listening position, and so if we strive towards no less than 20dB headroom the Microwrecker is not "shooting above the goal," as I see it - actually it just meets it (as if it weren't enough). However, if we look past max. SPL's the question could be posed, again, as to how the bass is actually perceived at more "normal" listening levels. How would a 21"-fitted tapped horn sound compared to a 15" ditto? Would one be able to register the increased size in driver diameter (and better power handling) via the Othorn as something that would create an even more effortless and impactful "feel"? I don't know. Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions. I do look forward to your upcoming builds! I'm tempted to halt my decision to see what's coming from your hands.. Thanks again for the feedback /Mikael
  6. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Hello, everyone -- Time for an update. I haven't yet initiated my proposed sub build, but could be about to soon. My old main speakers were sold about a month ago, and I have allocated some funds for the sub project. My initial plan was to build two of lilmike's Microwreckers, but I fear my 20 sq. meter listening room will be too crammed with a pair of those, so I'm considering only one sub. Being that the overall physical imprinting of the Othorn is about equal to the Microwrecker and that it houses a bigger driver for more "impact," I strongly consider the Othorn instead - even though it may sacrifice a few hertz at the bottom end. Now I know some here would rather have me looking into a non-horn solution, vented or otherwise, but I'm on a horn mission, so please bear with me in considering the following: The Othorn is build around the B&C 21SW152 (4 ohm version, I guess?), but at a downtick in price the sibling model 21DS115-4 has been mentioned as a viable alternative as well. I gather even with the 21DS115-4 I'll have loads of headroom, but is it worth saving some bucks to go with that driver instead of the 21SW152? Here in Europe the 21WS152 is only about €100 more expensive, so not a deal breaker as such, but I'm still considering the 21DS115-4. It's also 3dB's more sensitive, not that it might matter at all. If money isn't an issue I take it the recommendation is for the 21SW152. However, is the 21DS115-4's only drawback that it has a disadvantage at extreme outputs where its smaller voice coil will start heating up more rapidly, or is there a more general disadvantage, irrespective of SPL, that would have people favor the 21SW152? In principle price is not an issue for me; I just want the most capable solution. The being said I might as well save €100 if for all intends and purposes the 21DS115-4 will do just as well in my situation (and invite my girlfriend out for dinner for the saved bucks). I mean, I wouldn't use the Othorn in an outdoor rig at >75% of its performance envelope. Please chime in. /Mikael
  7. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for your reply, @Kvalsvoll - indeed much appreciated Actually @lilmike's F20 was among the first batch of horn subs I considered (including Mr. @Ricci's 2. runners-up, the Othorn, and Mr. Fitzmaurice's THT), but I have ended up settling on lilmike's MicroWrecker: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1514504-my-lilmike-microwrecker-lilmike-s-plans-thread.html The chosen driver (recommended by lilmike along with a sibling driver) will be the B&C 15TBX100, which should model very well in named horn, and be sufficiently powerful as well. By all accounts an excellent driver in itself. I think you're absolutely right, that if I don't try out the horn route I'll regret it at a later juncture. Being that I intend to build two Micro Wrecker's I hope, and even suspect integration will be a bit easier compared to my single SVS SB16-Ultra. But, that will obviously have to be verified in-use. When a pair of speakers I have (not the Uccello's) are sold I'll initiate the build of two MicroWrecker's, and will gladly report on the progress/process and eventual impressions once they're finished and setup.
  8. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    (just a quick reply - more tomorrow) Wait a minute, why do you automatically assume I don't have a keen eye (i.e.: mind and ear) on the contribution of room resonances/modes, and how to possibly work around them - at least partially as much as efforts, equipment and circumstances permit? I'm not getting at you, but let's not resort to the lowest dominator here; I'm quite aware of the (other) issues you point to, and a friend of mine who's very well versed into sub-integration and the importance of acoustics, indeed integration as a whole, will assist in implementing said subs. Measuring the response is no doubt a big help, and will possibly be done with the upcoming sub solution (my friend has all the gear to use here), but that will only do so much if the trained ear won't be accompanying. That's just our approach. The SVS app has been used extensively in my existing setup, as has a range of small bass traps of different sizes and in different places, fine tuning the placement of the sub with the use of bass sweeps (Nordost CD), phase correction, PEQ and what not - all by ear. Having two subs will likely make integration easier if the intended symmetrical placement against the opposing sidewalls (the long-wall sides) is anything to go by. We're not completely lost on the importance of integration; it's a core parameter indeed.
  9. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    You're not the first here to (implicitly) suggest I should look for another sub solution than horns.. Look, if I don't mind the space a pair of horn subs take up, and I'm mostly aware of some of the "pitfalls" or drawbacks using them (as I believe I have made clear above), then what's the remaining rub? What's sufficient headroom to you - 10, 15dB's? I'd like to aim for 20dB's on up. What would you suggest I build instead of horn subs? Let's not kid ourselves into believing sealed and ported subs are potentially trouble free either, and bear in mind that the OP of mine was inquiring on the Othorns.. I appreciate the well-meant support across the board, but reiterating my preference for horns subs becomes tiresome after a while. I was referring to a passive solution, yes. If I'm to remove the cross-overs from my main speakers and go all-active then that's a rather elaborate undertaking with new amps and more channels, and with the sensitivity at play of those speakers noise issues are readily exposed with the filtering process. I'm actually interested in going the active route, but that's a second "rocket stage" I've yet to delve into, and for now I've only considered implementing a pair of subs with the remaining setup. Suggestions are certainly welcome going active though, so please fire away anyone.
  10. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Duly noted, but I believe I need to stress that a horn sub could as well and in some regards even better a sealed, ported or otherwise solution in filling in the duties in this "equation.," space permitted. I'm convinced that sheer headroom is one of the core parameters where "sound quality" from a sub (and main speakers) goes, and that having loads of this is determining in supplying the ease and relaxed presentation that I've grown so fond of. From what I can understand a horn sub will not easily go below 15Hz unless size and efficiency takes a hit (i.e.: size enters cubic meters), let alone hit 10Hz with brute force, and tapped horns in many iterations I understand are marred by "ringing" artifacts in their upper spectrum, calling for careful and elaborate filtering here. However, a good tapped horn or FLH should cover 20-100Hz from a some 600 liter volume (some 20 cu. ft.?) with a relatively flat response, and let's not forget that honest, high-ish efficiency 20-25Hz bass is deeeep. Important points raised here. One of the main goals of mine initiating the upcoming sub project was to go dual. The easy solution would be simply buying an extra sub similar to the one I have now, the SB16-Ultra, but here in Denmark it retails for some $3,000 - a steep uptick over its US price. I'm sure two of those in my listening room would be a very capable sub setup with more than fair amounts of headroom, certainly for my needs, by I feel it to be an opportunity to go look for a pair of horn subs and see how two of those would blend in and perform in my setup - not least in light of my main speakers being all-horns. The folks over at the Klipsch forum are by and large quite adamant in their recommendation to go for a horn sub, not least when the mains are all-horns, and since many of them use such main speakers (contrary to most "audiophiles") my interest was and still is sparked. I'd actually cherish, certainly as an option, to low-pass a pair of subs in the 80-100Hz range while high-passing my mains as well in freeing them from half an octave here (i.e.: even more headroom!), but there's one problem: the quality of the high-pass filter for the mains. I dare say my main speakers are very high quality (honestly they bowl over a pair of JBL K2 S9900's, who retails for 4x the price of the Uccello's, sans the lowest octave being they roll off below some 60Hz), and there's no way I'm going to let anything other than a VERY high quality high-pass filter get in between here. Period, end of story. If you know any that are fairly priced and, again, VERY high quality, I'm all ears - most certainly. Regarding the phase match I'm glad you brought this up. I intend to place my upcoming subs against the opposing side walls, so that sitting in the listening chair/sofa they're to my left and right and hereby closer to me than my main speakers. This is not the only placement option, but as an outset how would you regard the viability of it? Would I have to delay the signal to the subs this way? Lastly I must point out that the bass horn of my main speakers stop acting like horns below some 100-125Hz, or so I've read over at said Klipsch forum, and that being so I'm thinking whether the roll on the bass isn't 12dB's/octave? Still it's cheaper with horns than going multiple large diameter drivers in sealed cabs. Interesting observations - duly noted. I have wondered whether the MicroWrecker/F20 performance envelope in the deep bass would be sufficient for HT-duties. My own SB16-Ultra easily digs below 20Hz in-room, and singlehandedly can shake my whole listening room with some Blu-ray - quite a thrilling effect. Question is how deep it takes to create this effect? I may compromise here with the MicroWrecker, but I'm not sure. If I do I suspect conversely there are gains in the more audible spectrum of the horns. Yes, and I have no qualms high-passing a sub that low. Lilmike has also let the importance of this come to my attention, if mostly for the reason to avoid distortion artifacts down here.
  11. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    From what I can assess lilmike's MicroWrecker is a competently developed tapped horn (easily the equal of the F20, it seems), and the driver I intend to use here, the B&C 15TBX100, is said to model very well in named horn, apart from being a quality driver in itself. The Wrecker sports a sensitivity of some 96dB's (like the driver), has decent bandwidth, good power handling and an expectedly potent bass "footprint" that far exceeds what a similarly sized driver could do as a typical stand-alone direct radiator, all of which should bode well for ample headroom in my case, not least using two of them. With some extra plywood for a bigger sized enclosure and free plans for a TH readily supplied by lilmike it seems quite some money is saved compared to buying bigger and more expensive drivers, in multitudes (incl. amps), for smaller enclosures for DR use. As I've pointed out I don't mind the extra size of horns, and there is room for them in a variety of positions. As I intend to low pass the Wrecker at some 60-65Hz I don't see how that should pose a problem? I'm not trying to be willful, I just don't see how it applies in my situation. Sealed subs with 18"+ drivers has certainly been on my radar as well and I suspect they can even approach single digit performance (Hz), but by all accounts this will be a more expensive path if going for the same level of headroom. I've hired a cabinet maker to build my subs, and I have a good bearing on the expense for this purpose which, added to the fair priced B&C units mentioned earlier, should make for a cost effective sub solution. I don't know how much one should push for sub 15Hz capabilities, but of course it obviously drives some more than others to achieve this. It certainly comes at a price, one way or the other, and I'd rather have my focus on the 20Hz range and up and have higher SPL capability and headroom than pay dearly for the infrasonics. A 20-25Hz TH should be able to reach close to 15Hz in-room, which is fine by me. In effect, yes, I have made up my mind, but it's not that I won't reach for the hand brake if it seems what I'm after is running at a collision course. Concerning budget it seems the MicroWrecker will be a great bang for the buck, likely even very capable in more absolute terms, and to reiterate: space considerations, while not of no importance, is not an issue. That appears to be one heck of a capable sub-setup you've implemented. Would love to hear it, but I reside in Europe.. By my monetary range and needs I believe the horn approach to be the most appropriate, but obviously I'll have to create some sawdust and trial and error process to see whether it's actually the case.
  12. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Happy to read this
  13. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Mr. Ricci -- I'm sure you're right about calling out in a sense my preconceived stance on ported subs (or at least a stance that's based on limited experience), and that great sounding vented designs are out there - contrary to my experience. For some time now though I've got my head wrapped around implementing a pair of horn subs in my setup, and it's not to say I'm inflexible on other ways to make great bass (hopefully), but I just still don't see any compelling reasons to abandon a horn sub approach. I don't see you, or others here doing that per se, but more that you may try and prevent me from making some bad calls, and for that I'm actually thankful Regarding the size of horn subs, the solution I'm likely to implement, namely lilmike's MicroWrecker, is by no means a shoebox, and I'm sure I'll shake my head in blunt realization once they're eventually placed in my listening room, a pair of them not least, and wonder what the hell I was thinking. I still don't mind their size though (unless it affects the sound negatively), for I have a dedicated listening room, and as such the only thing impractical is getting them transported to the 2nd floor (hopefully without the pale-faced witnessing of my neighbors, with the thought of what they're about to be treated to). One thing that's left out by you is this, perhaps for a very good reason: considering the sound of the subs. Bass is not simply bass, is it? Doesn't the sound from the different horn subs you've made differ, and isn't there something about the Othorn that makes people calling it "the most musical sub" they've ever heard? Perhaps running subs of different designs up to no more than 10-15% of their capabilities will render the bass they produce very similar (if they're all well implemented), I don't know, but I find it hard to believe if one truly and critically listens to them (and I'm not implying you don't). That being said, you're the one with experience here, a lot of it, and that brings me in a disadvantage. To your questions: Budget: $2,500, or thereabouts (for subs) Listening habits: % music / % movies / how loud? 70 / 30 / 65-110dB's (the latter number is the occasional "bursts," not average, with either films or music) How much space can you dedicate to the subwoofers? Listening room is ~1,900 cu. feet Current system / subs / room? NAS drive > SOtM sPS-500 PSU > SOtM sMS-200ultra 12V network player > SOtM sDP-1000 DAC/preamp > Belles SA-30 pure Class-A power amp > Simon Mears Audio Uccello's all-horn main speakers > SVS SB16-Ultra sub (one) What do you hope to improve about the sound of your current system? Integration, the positive of using more than one sub, and that effortless sense of air-vibration, envelopment, and visceral impact
  14. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    Thanks for chiming in, Kvalsvoll. That's exactly what I'm after. I hope I'll not be far off with my finale choice..
  15. m_ms

    Othorn - HT capable?

    I like that expression: war volume. Stretching a pair of horn sub legs like the MicroWrecker in our apartment would likely wreck many a thing indeed (and have our 11-month son somersault)...
×