Droogne

Only reason I have not jumped on the LaVoce (while price is still low, it's discount at this moment) is that they are not available in 4 ohm like my B&C.

I modelled them, and the LaVoce SAN214.50 and 215.30 look to be really similar in my cab, and I have them available at 200 euro less. Because I'm in Europe the LaVoce are better priced than the options. The 18SOUND NLW9601 might also work but performs little bit less and i similar in price to the SW152. 

I have 2 subs I built a few years back, but for now I only have 1 SW152-4 woofer installed and I cant find a second one for a good price. Are there similar commercially available alternative I can look for (second hand).

Thanks

34 minutes ago, klipsch said:

My 2 skrams are mixed with 8 sealed ht18s. Sounds great to me

I might do something similar. Do you think you gained a lot? And do you let them overlap, or do you avoid mixing? Because originally I was gonna use my 2x skram(like sub)s tuned to around 20hz. If I cant combine them in the <40hz range, I'm not sure how much I will gain with (lets say) 4 sealed subs (similair to theHT18s). I mean, 4x 18" subs will also deliver stronlgy in the 40-80hz range. 

General opinions on mixing a Skram with sealed subs. Is there much to be gained (below lets say 35hz)? Or is this too narrow to benefit (a home theatre), or will interference make it impractical (after basic DSP). 

Been thinkering again, got a week of now till I start again with work (in the COVID19 wards; so will not have a lot of free time as you can imagine). 

The models with the NLW9600 make me appreciate a higher tuning some more.

Xmax limited

                         130dB point               lowest level                      effective 0dB FR

31hz tune        32.5hz                        129.8dB

32hz tune        33.0hz (+0.5hz)        130.6dB (+0.8dB)

33hz tune        33.8hz (+1.3hz)        131.3dB (+1.3dB)            34-.. hz 131.3dB +-0dB

34hz tune        34.3hz (+1.9hz)        131.9dB (+1.9dB)            35-.. hz 131.9dB +-0dB

(I have to admit I didnt incorporate the increase in size by reducing port size)

FR between 34 and 31hz for reference

So for these drivers a somewhat higher tuning might increase the output while sacrificing 1-2hz cutoff. Maybe just tune them at 34hz (or even higher), and use a single specific port divider to allow tuning between 31 and 34hz. 

Yes I like low frequency output, also for PA (as it suits my music), so I'm not eager to give up the LF output for some more output in general. But it does look like shifting the tuning a little bit might be beneficial in general. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1l7Pf_MkJqLrwNJE_N-kdNn-AXEGntZG8

Here is a link to the REW files of the left MEH (+ la scala). Anything to suggest that I do? What about the delays? Any remarks on the crossovers (700hz 48dB)? Would you flatten it, or boost some of the range? 

I realise those are some newbie questions I guess, but I want to get it right, and I fear I'm making some mistakes over and over. 

Have decided to place the synergies on the 2x LaScalas I still have. That way I can boost the 60-120hz. Why only 120hz? Because that is the 1/4th WL distance between the center of the LaScala and the synergy. I'm already liking it! It also brings the speakers up to earheight (and positions the right one completely above the couch) and allows horizontal placement.

Also, my OLED has been fixed! Apparently the motherboard crapped the bed.. was replaced in 10 minutes, but did cost me the price of upgrading to a better compression driver..

Also, random idea. Use 2x 12" on side (horizontal) and 1x 21" (the 21LW1400 for which I have no purpose) on the other side. So a 3 way actually

2x12" is around 150-700hz 131-133dB at RMS Xmax limited.

The 21"' can easily do 50-150hz 131dB, with 50-80hz at 135dB. I think if I model this as a 3-way MEH, the overlap between 80 and 150hz will add a lot more, that way it will do 135dB down to at least 135hz. And go to 50hz.

As listed above, the BMS/B&C can do a theoretical 135dB at RMS. 

My 4x 12" solution (with ports, 75hz) would result in a response I'd prefer though, the 21" is just something to toy with. 4x 12" is way more powerfull (aka 135dB at RMS) up to the crossover so it can match the CD. It would only go down to 60hz if I tune it low, but with a slightly higher tune I can add some output in the 80-200hz range (which I would like to boost in general, to match the subs). 

2pi, RMS Xmax limited for 2x drivers (modelled together because they share the same cabin), tuned to 75hz. So lowest max output in a 4x 12" driver situation would be ~137dB (between 300-400hz). 70-200hz would enjoy 141dB max output at RMS.

The 4x 21" woofers I have now would be able to match them (~131dB each from 32hz) in the cabins I designed.

7 minutes ago, peniku8 said:

Cool topic, I wonder why I haven't discovered it yet.

For speaker measurements I'd recommend doing those in a anechoic room (outside for us plebs). I think speakers with a native flat response over ~500Hz sound better than speakers which have been EQ'd flat indoors. Our brain basically filters out reflections to a degree, which the measurement mic does not. Even if you end up measuring a spike and EQ'ing that away, you might percieve it as lacking in that region then.

I know.. but I just can lug it outside. However, we will be using them for an outside event, so before it takes place I'm gonna take the chance to EQ them completely. 

What would you recommend for inside EQ (in a 'chaotic room'). Just EQ down to 500hz? 

7 minutes ago, peniku8 said:

If you have enough amp channels/dsp channels you could go with the B&C DCX464 as alternative to the BMS. It will have higher dynamic range (111db sensitivity+almost 400W power handling?! dear god...) and probably have a wider operating range due to the dedicated mid. It's priced similarly. I'm planning on doing a build with those and possibly something like a 12NDL88 or some 10" drivers.

I have thought about both of them, compared to my JBL2447. At the moment I have enough channels on the XP4080 to do a 3-way. As I have listed once on AVSf:

"The DCX464 lists as 110+80W with a 111.1dB/1W and 111.4dB/1W sensitivity respectively, measured on a "320hz" exponential horn, so ~134dB net. However, I'm not sure how this translates to my 80x40 horn.

The BMS lists as a 80+150W with a 118dB/1W sensitivity, measured on a 40x20 horn. I gather it will be around6dB lower than on my 80x40, which would fit with the 110dB/1W when looking at the graphs BMS has for the 4594. So a net of ~134.5dB.

So both show around a 134dB output at RMS. I already have JBL 2447 drivers, which are listed at around 132dB down to (at least) 700hz. So around 70% less output. Radion 950 would seems like a whopping 135.5W continues on a 80x40."

7 minutes ago, peniku8 said:

I'll also play around with the DE360. It won't go ultra loud but the HF response is super smooth with the new diaphragm material. Plus that one is only like 60€!

The DE360 only goes down to 1200hz, and my synergy stops at 700hz.

2 hours ago, Ricci said:

Gotcha...I thought I saw 402's in some pictures you posted. They are expensive. I bought a used pair and they were not cheap. I got quoted a new pair and it was much more. I hate to think what it would cost to get them landed over in the EU after VAT. Luckily I don't really care about looks for the warehouse system. 

Yes, importing them costs around 2500-3000.. That is WITH the K69, but that doesnt compensate.The horns I have now I got for less than 500. Resale value is nihil (although they are build by Don Keele so it has a 'name'), but I didnt bother too much as I was gonna cut holes in them which slashes their value either way 🙂 .

2 hours ago, Ricci said:

I do like the weight savings of neo drivers. The 2445 JBL "tweeters" are over 30lbs. 

Yes, going to a BMS4592 would save more than 8kg (20 lbs) in weight.

Same for the woofers, I want 4 in it I should switch to P80Nd instead of the Fe version. Goes from 12.5kg to 6.5kg (so for 4 woofers thats 25kg..).

4 hours ago, klipsch said:

I am dangerous enough with REW. What are you looking for or concerned with specifically? Measurements? Response? Filter simulation? Etc. 

Just basic stuff, I can EQ till I get a +-1dB flat response, but thats it. I dont require anything fancy for now. Can I maybe mail you the measurements, than you can maybe make some suggestions (mic setup, crossover choice and what not)? Normally I'm in contact with Chris A (if you know him), but I dont want to impose too much on him.

Any of you guys sufficiently experienced with REW to have a look at my measurements to see what I might be doing wrong? 

I particularily am dissatisfied about the bass part, even when EQd flat to 80hz (with subs). 

At this moment I have enourmous trouble making them sound good. They are OK, they 'work'. Inteligibillity is fine, and better than most of the speakers I have had, but not superb. At least not to compensate for their size. 

Bass is also very poor. However I should not be mad about that  It's because of the 12P80Fe driver. It modelled very poorly under 100hz. However, they are incredibly strong from 120-700hz (126dB; 2pi, RMS)

A port might help (firing from sides, or top when they stand vertical.), especially if I can block them of so I can keep them 'sealed' too.

Maybe I can just sacrifice part of the horn (5-10cm from the width on each side). At the sides (horizontal definetely) the horn is almost completely flat. 

1 minute ago, Ricci said:

So you currently have a single 12P80Fe in each? Did you ever decide on a cd? Also do you still have your K-402's? 

I picked up a set of K-402's last year to replace my JBL 2360's with 2445J's. Ended up deciding on the Axi2050 and picking those up too. I had it narrowed to those vs the Radian 950bePB. I was set to try the Radian but it turned out to be much more expensive and with a longer lead time than the Celestion. Unfortunately I haven't gotten my shit together and made the switch yet. 

I never had the K402, because they were so goddamn expensive over here in Europe. 

For CD I just use a JBL 2447, but I'm definetly gonna replace them. Same for the 12P80Fe. Good drivers I'm sure, but both very heavy (10+ kg each) which limits the portability. Getting the 110x80x60cm cabin down will be extremely difficult to start with, the weight will make it a lot harder to manouver them.

However, I would probably go for a BMS4595 (I need a 1.5" throat..). The Radian if I can find a second hand. Maybe make a 1.4 to 1.5" adapter so I can have a wider pick of drivers.

The celestion look pretty cool! A more high end version of the BMS? (or at least when looking at the price  ). 

Xilica XP4080, measuring with UMIK1+REW. 

They are finished for now, with a single woofer each, and I have everything for a loner thread. However, I'm still not happy with them so I keep on tweaking and measuring etc till I'm satisfied.

1 hour ago, chrapladm said:

Anymore progress?

14 minutes ago, Ricci said:

Don't put anything in the horn/slot section. The front phase of the driver. Sorry I worded that badly. 

All right, so eerything except the walls adjacent to the port opening (including a part of the walls cornering it).

EDIT: sorry, you worded it correctly. Everywhere except in front of the driver (and in the ports themselves I guess). I do however see you also didnt line the parts around the port opening. Because you counted this parts as part of the port?

On 3/18/2020 at 3:04 PM, Ricci said:

Yep...

This is a 6th order BP type design. You don't want stuffing, just line the walls with some 1.5 or 2" / 50mm thick foam and staple gun it in there. Do the ported section only. All you are trying to do is knock down some of the high frequency reflections outside of the sub bandwidth. Try sticking your head inside of the unlined cab and snapping your fingers...There will be a lot of HF's and reflection. Repeat after lining and it's much much deader. Also it keeps the wire from rattling if they end up touching the cabinet wall. Keep the port entry clear though. A good 6" / 150mm clearance or so should be fine. See pics below. 

For a particularly nasty resonance you could put a pillow in there somewhere but it'll cut some efficiency and you must keep it away from the motor vents and the ports both. 

What do you mean by 'only do the ported section'; Only my first box, or more in general? Because the IPAL seems to have it on all walls; except the ports.

12 hours ago, peniku8 said:

That's what I have an emergency stock for..!

I build my speakers in my living room 😛 I would never be able to store, let alone bring up, huge pannels like that. I might find some pannels on the second hand market, but I would have to cut them myself.. something which is something I rather not do as I do make mistakes (I dont have have a decent cutting table.. just a very small one for small cuts.) The store I normally go to is pretty cheap, has wood I really like (maybe not the best structural strength, but it has a nice look) and they cut it for free as long as the cuts are straigt. So for me there are no good alternatives. Oh well.. We all have to make compromises these days I guess.

Yup yup, all "non-essential" stores will be closed from tomorrow on. So I will not be able to buy the wood I need. Will have to shelve the project. I'll finish up the design, focus on tweaking my mains (of which I will be starting a large thread on AVS/diyAudio/both), study, and hope I have the time to build the subs before my event in june. 

8 minutes ago, peniku8 said:

It was +75% of the shorter dimension in my case, since the port opens to the side of the longer dimension in my cab.

It's a guess, but the tuning of yours will probably come in between +50% and +75%.

Allright.

What are you trying to achieve with the filling?

Honestly no clue, thats why I wanted to ask. You only used minimal I see.

1 hour ago, peniku8 said:

It will drop the tuning, but probably not by a noticeable amount. The cab will still be like 3cm off the ground and there are no side walls in addition to that.

Also, the air pressures outside the cab and inside the cab differ, which probably also has an affect on how the geometry behaves, which is probably also insignificantly small. 

With my cab, I got the tuning spot on when I added 75% of the vent width to the length, with a vertical port. But that‘s only due to the weird port entry geometry and the fact that the port is only about two port widths from the rear wall. And the handles...

So not 50% of height, but rather 75% of width? Because my port is also significantly wider. Because that would mean +25cm? Or do you mean because the port is vertical, the width is the shortest dimention. But still, rather 75% than 50%?

1 hour ago, peniku8 said:

Your port is pretty long to begin with, so the difference will be like 1Hz or so. I‘d not care much.

 

Allright, the drivers arived today and I ordered the necessariy parts (connectors, handles..). How much filling do you suggest for this design? And do you add internal volume due to the filling (I've read +20% somewhere, but I never do).

13 hours ago, Ricci said:

Sort of but it's more complicated than that. HR considers each boundary an infinite wall. This isn't true even with a bunch of cabs outdoors. 

True.

However, doesnt the "+50% of the height" also apply to a vent when it radiates horizontally at floor level?