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Everything posted by Droogne

  1. I've asked this before, but I'd like to know if the Beyma 21SW1600ND would be a close match to the cheaper drivers. I can get a pair for 450, and my initial modelling (based on the manufacturers disclosed specs) are great. Anyone who can chime in?
  2. Me being in the EU makes the Eminence harder to get than the IPAL, sadly I think I got the modelling right (checked vs the models listed above here), but still not sure to model with or without lossy Le. Thanks for running me through the process! At this moment I have a pair of Sundown Audio ZV4 18D2 drivers, so I modelled them for reference. Keeping aside pragmatic problems (it being an 18" driver with a huge rubber hangup) I quite like this. A 5-10dB gain to the sealed I have right now, and only 2dB loss vs the 'cheaper' 21"ers mentioned above. All ports open (for reference) Compared to the sealed config I have them in now: Sealed, 140L
  3. Thanks! Awesome tool! I cant pick 'Lossy Le' when doing this, might explain some different values between us. What would be the most accurate modelling, lossy Le ON or OFF? In any case, this is what I get with the 2-port configuration (the one I'm most interested in for modelling) using their respective max voltage inputs and Xmax: SW152 La Voce IPAL 21 Looks like 2-3dB might be closer. Considering the LaVoce is about half of the price of the IPAL, is readily available and is much more amplifier friendly I will probably go with that one. I was briefly considering using a 5000W 2 ohm car amplifier with an AC/DC transformator, but that seems somewhat complex to work out. PS: how do I put all these graphs over each other?
  4. How do you get these kind of graphs? I see youre graph shows a 3dB, not 6 tot 8dB difference. I havent figured out how to compare several graphs like you. I modelled it based on the displacement graph in the wiazrd function: This graph shows the displacement of the SW152 in the 2 port configuration at full 2000W 4ohm (89V, GRAY). Xmax is listed at 15mm, so you can see it maxes out at ~42Hz. When I reduce the volts to 62 you can see it stays below the 15mm Xmax. This results in the following output, which shows a 3-4dB loss due to reduced input. When I do this for the IPAL 21 I get the following graphs, showing an Xmax that alway stays below the listed 22mm. Comparing those: IPAL 21 SW152 => I dont know if I made a mistake earlier, as the difference isnt that big anymore, but still. At 20hz there is a major advantage for the IPAL (at least in a 2 port config). 20hz: 125dB vs 118db aka 7dB 30hz: 125dB vs 123dB aka 2dB 40hz: 128dB vs 124dB aka 4dB DISCLAIMER: i'm new to modelling, so dont take these results for what they are.
  5. +1. This is why I keep posting my models here. I'm bound to make mistakes. Here is the SW152 in a 2 port config, with 2000W 4ohm (instead of the 2000W 8 ohm I used earlier..). On the other hand, the model I care the most about is the Xmax limited, which stays the same (SW152 already hits it Xmax at 60 volts, which is still lower than the 89V at 2000W 4ohm). That said.. is 'Xmax limited' something that is a logical way to approach this? I made the same mistake on the ohm/voltage front, so for the IPAL you cannot input 53V (as 2500W 1ohm is 50V), but it doesnt make any real difference dB wise. This means the IPAL can be used to its full power in the Skram, while the SW152 and Lavoce clearly dont as they need to restrict their input by ~30-40V to stay below Xmax. This is clearly reflected in the output, which favors the IPAL even more. 6-8dB in favor of the IPAL (I see you modelling shows a slighter difference which is probably due to not being Xmax limited?) . Normally I'd say, 6-8dB makes an IPAL Skram x4-6 times more worth it, so the extra few euros (in my case the IPAL isnt even twice as expensive as the cheapest LaVoce I can find) would be saving me money by needing less subs (and space!), but sadly the 1 ohm load of the IPAL is the dealbraker. No way I can afford one of those ultra expensive amps that can take on a 1ohm/channel or 2om bridged load. Otherwise I would have placed my IPAL order this evening. So.. Xmax limited you mean? Or just full 1700, 2000 and 2500W without looking at Xmax? It's up on Bluearan in the UK. Always the best price as far as I can see. Next one where I normally look is TLHP in France (but IPAL over there is still at the regular 900 euro). I urgently need to use his parameters too, instead of manufacturer listed ones.. dont know why I didnt do that from the get go.
  6. Also, if I model the IPAL 21 I get similar results, though still massively favoring the IPAL (even when considering costs). First of all, consider the current marketprices over here (Belgium): Lavoce 21 SAN: 358 euro B&C SW152: 519 IPAL 21: 650 euro When modelled to never exceed Xmax we get these results (2pi, 2 port configuration): 20hz 30hz 40hz 50hz 60hz 70hz 80hz amount of volts needed to reach Xmax DB lost due to Xmax limiting Price Lavoce 21 SAN 117 123 125 125 125 127 128 80 3dB 358 B&C SW152 118 122 125 126 126 127 129 60 6dB 519 B&C IPAL 21 125 127 129 132 133 134 135 55 8dB 650 => it looks like the IPAL suffers the most from limiting its output to Xmax, but it still kicks ass (especially in the low end), AND it needs LESS power to get there. Should I jump on the IPALs and get a pair before prices go up again?
  7. Also sorry, to be someone else wondering about the CNC files, but I cant seem to figure out how to send this to my CNC operator in a way that he can effectively work with this. I downloaded the 3 files listed here above, but I cant seem to work out an 'easy' way to appoint the correct measurements, so my CNC guy can get to work. Greetings
  8. Lavoces here in Europe also go for a lot less. I was modelling them vs the SW152 drivers and I see around a 3-4dB difference (from 30hz and up) at full RMS input, so justifying the costs of the B&C. However, the Lavoce has an Xmax of 15,5mm (instead of 15mm) and a max power rating of 1700W (instead of 2000W), so I figured the SW152 might hit that 15mm Xmax sooner. When I model it to limit the output to their respective Xmax (at 40hz) it looks like the Lavoce can take more power (80V instead of 60V) which translated into only 3dB loss instead of 6dB, so a relative '3dB gain' for the Lavoce which effectively bridges the 3-4dB gap I modelled at their respective full power. So Xmax limited the Lavoce results in only slightly less output instead of a very relevant 3-4dB. Please correct me if I make wrong assumptions or modellings, I'm pretty new to this.
  9. @Ricci Does this look more like it?
  10. Also, what do you think of trying to make an 18" equivalent version? I very much like the performance of the Skram, but their size is scaring me a bit. Height and width aren't problematic, but the depth is. I would like to reduce it to 60-70cm, as it would make it more accessible for my living situation. If not possible to reduce the depth without changing the design completely, then I'll just leave the size as is.
  11. I did yes. Didnt use the "lossy Le" option. Here is the difference: 2 port configuration:
  12. Ok thanks. I modelled them all out for my own reference. Here the results for everyone interested. I Xmax limited the output (15mm for the 21Sw152) 1 port operation. Xmax at ~22hz, 60 volts 2 port operation. Xmax at 30hz, 70 volts 3 port operation. Xmax at ~22hz, 80 volts
  13. Great to know the hornresp parameters for the Skram with all vents, but how would I convert this to a configuration with only 1 vent open? Anyone who can help?
  14. Good point. An extra reason to consider the Othorn. Skram only wins in my eyes, if it could work as a bin for 150hz too. For now I didn't realy consider the build complexity, costs, Amp requirements and size. So this will be the next step. Skram does look smaller and less complex. Gonna hear how much my carpenter would charge for each, and look at driver costs.
  15. Picking a good kickbin is the next dilemma. I only need a -6db between 80-150hz, so.. 60-200hz -3dB. 2 kickbins coupled together for each synergy? 2 dB in this range vs 150hz crossover => kickbin that can do 80hz 123-129dB (not exceeding Xmax!)
  16. I have decided that there are 2 options, considering my latest driver choice which will give me a 150hz -2db. (NOTE: skip to end conclusion for a more coherent text. I got caried away when typing, but I do like my thoughts included in this post). 1. for maximum SPL: use a 120 or 150hz highpass on the synergy, and place it on top of a kickbin (80-150hz) OR sub that can reach this high (Skram for example). This would end up at 2pi, 123dB at 150hz for 1 woofers, so ~135dB using 4 woofers. being able to seperate tops (synergy + kickbin) from the subs will be a big advantage IMO, which allow for better subplacement. seperating subs from the synergies, without using a kickbin would not be ideal with a 120-150hz crossover QUESTION ( @Ricci) : how many Skrams would I need. Considering 2 Skrams are 1 Skhorn and hits 146dB (125hz, continuous, 2 meter RMS, 2 pairs of vents open)? So 152dB at 1 meter? And around -6dB for 1 Skram so back at 146dB. Than 1 Skram already looks like overkill as it would have an +11dB advantage on the synergy. See dB continious, 2m for the Skhorn below. This would mean a single Skram would match the 150hz crossover down to at a little bit higher than 35hz,.. awesome!? Using he 1 pair of vents open option would still yield a powerfull enough respons up to 125hz and has a more powerfull 20hz SPL, but would be matching at 50hz intead of at 31,5hz (all vents open) For music this doesnt look like a good tradeoff. 10hz 12,5hz 20hz 25hz 31,5hz 40hz 50hz 63hz 80hz 100hz 125hz all vents open 103.8 125.6 135 139.1 139.2 140.4 144.2 145.4 146.2 1 pair of vents open 99.7 116.6 119.8 122.7 127.5 134.4 137.2 139.5 143.5 144.6 Othorn 94.3 106.1 122 128.3 132.2 131.5 133.3 133.9 135.8 136 2. for in home use I the synergy would play (1pi) 120dB 80hz before hitting Xmax. Definetely no kickbin needed as with 4x woofers Id still hit 132dB for each synergy. Having Skrams with 1 pair of vents open, Id hit ~140dB 80hz and ~117dB 20hz (which are 2 pi measured values.. so 1pi 146dB 80hz and 123dB 20hz). Only a match down to ~40hz, but mathching isnt as important in home, as I will definetely not reach those SPL levels, so I would probably still be more than fine with 2 skrams blasting 123dB 20hz in the living room (especially considering I might be able to corner load them AND use them in pairs which will add another 3dB). => this makes it obvious for me that matching the 80-150hz range is not gonna be the hardest part. Matching down to 40hz (which is an acceptable highpass for live music) seems to work fine, but then I wouldnt have any ramp up for the lower end (which I would like to be +~3dB between 40 and 120-150hz). Going even lower than 40hz will start being more problematic as the Skhorn/Skram drasticaly loses SPL. So yes the Skram/Skhorn might be a good match for 40-150hz, but it's overkill for 80-150hz. A dedicated kickbin for 80-150hz range (smaller cabinet, lower weight, lower costs etc) and then using an Othorn for a stronger respons down to 25-40hz might be a better plan. At 25hz this would be 128db (1 meter instead of 2 as listed above) so ~2dB more than a Skram all vents open, and at 40hz there would be 0dB difference. So in the sub 80hz range it looks like the Skram would outperform the Othorn for regular music/PA use, but would be outperformed by an Othorn+kickbin down to 25hz (and it would allow for seperating of synergy+kickbinfrom the subs for better subwooferplacement, subwoofercoupling, mounting on stages,..) ==> CONCLUSION: Skram is the easy option because it would allow for less bins necessary (as in: no kickbins) and stronger performance in the most common music range (40-...hz range), but sadly this is only true when comparing them in similar setups. Stacking all subs together, instead of splitting them inhalf into two equal stack gives them an extra 3dB, but this is only possible when using kickbins. When using kickbins, the big advantage of the Skram dissapears. When using the Skrams and synergies instead of Skram and Synergies+Kickbin I lose the 3dB advantage of stacking all subs together instead of splitting them in half. The Othorn is a stronger 25-80hz sub than the Skram is, the Skram on the otherhand is a stronger 40-80hz sub. I prefer a good 25-80hz range so my prefered setup would be Othorn and Synergy+Kickbin. I could already achieve a +2dB at 25hz (143dB) vs a pair of Synergies at 150hz (141dB) with only 4 Othorns. For Skrams (not coupled all together, but rather split into 2 equal stacks) to achieve this +2dB at 25hz I would need 2x4 of them. NOTE: I only used simple dB adding for calculations. The larger hornmouth that is created by coupling is not take into consideration. NOTE: all values uses, unless otherwise specified are at 1 meter RMS
  17. Ended up buying the Beyma 12P80Fe. Very heavy and solid driver! I'm gonna start with 2.
  18. Thanks, makes a lot of sense ;) In any case, best way might be to try it out! Best way might be to just try it out with the speaker I have right now.. Also, highest level I modelled was 120db @100hz (xmax limited with 3dB leftover to allow peak). In home highest level I ever listen to is 115-120dB, but only in very short amounts of time. Regular 'high' levels are at least 10db lower. I have the option to buy 2x 12P80Fe second hand for a very good price, so I'll use those to start with. One in each synergy. I'll make the ports for the 4 other woofers, and close them off from the inside. I'll add the woofers when I feel the need too (I only need those ridiculously high SPL levels in certain situations, which isnt any time soon). The Beyma 12MC700Nd is still for sale (the 12P80Fe is not, sadly enough) but it models almost the same so I think I can combine (especially if I just correct the 1dB difference by using a different amp, that way I dont need any extra DSP channel). If I model these woofers to allow a 80hz -6db crossover I can only reach 113dB, so I can use both of them when using limiters to make sure I dont exagerate and go for the higher levels. 12P80Fe: 12MC700Nd: 110-115dB at seat level is the absolute highest (including subs, which were running 6-10db hotter than the mains) I can take, and most of the time at least 5-10dB lower at 'high levels'. So no, I absolutely dont need this kind of levels. The fact is that is I do want more reserve AND I want to use them for the festival/live projects we regulary do with our youth movement. In that case I do want as much SPL as possible. So the focus is keeping to all the principles for absolute max quality, and within those limits go for the highest SPL.
  19. @Ricci@SME Hey after a lot of modelling, and discussing on DIYaudio I came to the conclussion that I can both use 12" woofers instead of 15 (or 18") woofers AND that it will be the best option if I want to reach the best quality. Due to cancellation because of relative distance between the center of the cone surface and the port into/through the horn, using a 15" woofer with a 650hz crossover would be a bad idea. 12" and 650hz is fine. 650hz is also way better for the CD, so thats why I'm going that route. Using 12" woofers means its harder to get high SPL and a low crossover to the subs, so thats why I will be going for a 120hz -6db (although it will end up being 100hz -6dB) as that point will allow me to use less woofers to reach the same point. I'm probably gonna use something like the Beyma 12 p80fe, which will get me an extremely high 100hz and up level. This gets me to 100hz and lower.. I dont really want to rely on subs only, as they are spaced to far from the synergies.. Or shouldnt I worry about this? I mean, having mains that go down to a usefull 40hz looks really beneficial to me, so rolling off at 100hz might dissapoint. I was thinking about using some simple vented 15" cabs (2 for each synergy) for 40-100hz, but would love to hear your thoughts on this. The Skram looks awesome, but wont get me the 130db 100hz RMS I want. Or will it? In any case, I dont need those cabs to go down as low, 40-50hz is fine. I'll add subs for anything below that. Maybe some suggestions for some good horn loaded 40-100hz cabs? Something like the LaScala but for little bit lower (lascala loses down 100hz already) Or how do you see the sub vs main placement? Would I be able to locate the subs and recognize the sub 100hz sound coming from the subs instead of the mains themself? Because if I cant I wont bother with making new subs, and just use the synergies in home with a 100hz crossover, and give everything below 100hz to my Sundown Audio sealed subwoofer pair.
  20. I might try out other woofers than the Em Kappas. Any suggestions? 100-700hz -3db. T/S parameter 'guideline' also welcome.
  21. You mentioned in your first post here, that it would be possible to make the Skram as if it would be really the Skhorn cut in half. The Skram is a little bit bigger than half the Skhorn. Driver would be anything but the IPAL, I can justify the costs off almost all drivers, but not the IPAL. I would however like to model the driver's in hornresp if possible. Do you have the respective specs for the different port configurations? And yes, I know it's pa oriented, just like a Danley synergy is, doesn't make it a bad home theatre sub/speaker just build enough and use them with the lowest tuning frequency. Definitely when corner loaded.
  22. Looks like there arent too much angled cuts etc.. so a pretty "easy" build? A few questions: 1. Do you have the hornsresp parameters? That way I can do some comparison for myself knowing modelling isnt perfect or real life) 2. What do you expect to happen with the lesser wideness of the Skram that is 'a Skhorn' cut in half? For moving situations I wouldnt be able to own a very wide cab like the Skram you propose. The smalelr version could work. I do own 2x 18" sealed subs right now, but might switch them with a single or pair of Skrams. Might be an interesting upgrade ! Definetely if I want to use them for PA situations too.
  23. The DCX464 also looks like a contender, definitely in the SPL field. I dont know anything about its quality yet though, which will be a major deciding factor.
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