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Droogne

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Everything posted by Droogne

  1. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    Full build thread will follow, for now just some pics and modelling. Idea is a big ass 2-way synergy horn, using the new horn designed by Omholt and Don Keele, measuring a whopping 108 x 75 x 38cm. Compression driver is not been chosen yet, but the horn is a 1,4" throat. I will probably start with a JBL 2447 and upgrade from there. Modelling is done in hornresp, based with these specs (and a 262L backchamber voume): Driver modelled is the one I have, the Eminence Kappa 15C. I only modelled a single driver, but I will be using 2 so you can add 6dB (due to coupling). I used full RMS power for the modelling as I use active crossovers. Crossover will be at 500hz, but for simplicity I put the off axis port at 536hz (1/4fth WL = 16CM aka L12 con), which is where the horn goes from conical to exponential. µhalf-space eight-space/corner When this driver would be mounted in a sealed configuration: To match most 2-way large compression drivers (which can hit 135dB at RMS) I was hoping to achieve this (or even +6-9dB) with the woofer section (100-500hz) and subwoofers (30-100hz). I can go up to 4x 18" woofers if need be. You can see there is almost no hornloading below 100+hz, so trying to push for lower extension is not what I'm gonna do. For Sub 100hz I will one day be building Othorns or other large horn subwoofers (recommendations welcome!) as I can bring the mouth center of large hornsubwoofers close enough to the synergy as to make it a point-source (1/4th WL of 100hz is 85cm). Design Still working out a lot of kinks, primarly the woofer mounting pads and structural stiffness of the horn, but I will be copying the follow design (without the LF ports and midbass woofers though):
  2. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    Thanks, makes a lot of sense ;) In any case, best way might be to try it out! Best way might be to just try it out with the speaker I have right now.. Also, highest level I modelled was 120db @100hz (xmax limited with 3dB leftover to allow peak). In home highest level I ever listen to is 115-120dB, but only in very short amounts of time. Regular 'high' levels are at least 10db lower. I have the option to buy 2x 12P80Fe second hand for a very good price, so I'll use those to start with. One in each synergy. I'll make the ports for the 4 other woofers, and close them off from the inside. I'll add the woofers when I feel the need too (I only need those ridiculously high SPL levels in certain situations, which isnt any time soon). The Beyma 12MC700Nd is still for sale (the 12P80Fe is not, sadly enough) but it models almost the same so I think I can combine (especially if I just correct the 1dB difference by using a different amp, that way I dont need any extra DSP channel). If I model these woofers to allow a 80hz -6db crossover I can only reach 113dB, so I can use both of them when using limiters to make sure I dont exagerate and go for the higher levels. 12P80Fe: 12MC700Nd: 110-115dB at seat level is the absolute highest (including subs, which were running 6-10db hotter than the mains) I can take, and most of the time at least 5-10dB lower at 'high levels'. So no, I absolutely dont need this kind of levels. The fact is that is I do want more reserve AND I want to use them for the festival/live projects we regulary do with our youth movement. In that case I do want as much SPL as possible. So the focus is keeping to all the principles for absolute max quality, and within those limits go for the highest SPL.
  3. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    @Ricci@SME Hey after a lot of modelling, and discussing on DIYaudio I came to the conclussion that I can both use 12" woofers instead of 15 (or 18") woofers AND that it will be the best option if I want to reach the best quality. Due to cancellation because of relative distance between the center of the cone surface and the port into/through the horn, using a 15" woofer with a 650hz crossover would be a bad idea. 12" and 650hz is fine. 650hz is also way better for the CD, so thats why I'm going that route. Using 12" woofers means its harder to get high SPL and a low crossover to the subs, so thats why I will be going for a 120hz -6db (although it will end up being 100hz -6dB) as that point will allow me to use less woofers to reach the same point. I'm probably gonna use something like the Beyma 12 p80fe, which will get me an extremely high 100hz and up level. This gets me to 100hz and lower.. I dont really want to rely on subs only, as they are spaced to far from the synergies.. Or shouldnt I worry about this? I mean, having mains that go down to a usefull 40hz looks really beneficial to me, so rolling off at 100hz might dissapoint. I was thinking about using some simple vented 15" cabs (2 for each synergy) for 40-100hz, but would love to hear your thoughts on this. The Skram looks awesome, but wont get me the 130db 100hz RMS I want. Or will it? In any case, I dont need those cabs to go down as low, 40-50hz is fine. I'll add subs for anything below that. Maybe some suggestions for some good horn loaded 40-100hz cabs? Something like the LaScala but for little bit lower (lascala loses down 100hz already) Or how do you see the sub vs main placement? Would I be able to locate the subs and recognize the sub 100hz sound coming from the subs instead of the mains themself? Because if I cant I wont bother with making new subs, and just use the synergies in home with a 100hz crossover, and give everything below 100hz to my Sundown Audio sealed subwoofer pair.
  4. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    I might try out other woofers than the Em Kappas. Any suggestions? 100-700hz -3db. T/S parameter 'guideline' also welcome.
  5. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

  6. Droogne

    Ricci's Skram Subwoofer & Files

    You mentioned in your first post here, that it would be possible to make the Skram as if it would be really the Skhorn cut in half. The Skram is a little bit bigger than half the Skhorn. Driver would be anything but the IPAL, I can justify the costs off almost all drivers, but not the IPAL. I would however like to model the driver's in hornresp if possible. Do you have the respective specs for the different port configurations? And yes, I know it's pa oriented, just like a Danley synergy is, doesn't make it a bad home theatre sub/speaker just build enough and use them with the lowest tuning frequency. Definitely when corner loaded.
  7. Droogne

    Ricci's Skram Subwoofer & Files

    Looks like there arent too much angled cuts etc.. so a pretty "easy" build? A few questions: 1. Do you have the hornsresp parameters? That way I can do some comparison for myself knowing modelling isnt perfect or real life) 2. What do you expect to happen with the lesser wideness of the Skram that is 'a Skhorn' cut in half? For moving situations I wouldnt be able to own a very wide cab like the Skram you propose. The smalelr version could work. I do own 2x 18" sealed subs right now, but might switch them with a single or pair of Skrams. Might be an interesting upgrade ! Definetely if I want to use them for PA situations too.
  8. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    The DCX464 also looks like a contender, definitely in the SPL field. I dont know anything about its quality yet though, which will be a major deciding factor.
  9. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    SKram looks awesome! Dont see any ouput measurents yet. Havent had time to go through all the pages, but dont see the Skram listed in the systems list. Looks like a better solution! Definetly with those new driver choises! Awesome!
  10. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    Biggest working points right now are: 1. Making sure I can mount the woofer pad to the horn, without creating an incredibly deep port (the pad is already 3/4th inch, and I have a 1" gap between the mounting pad and the horn, due to the curve of the horn). I will be using Epoxy to fill the space between the pad and the horn. To keep the ports as shallow as possible I will be rounding them down to 1 inch away from the port itself. This will make it act less like a 1,75" deep port, and keep the chamber between the woofer and the port as small as possible. 2. Make sure all the internal bracing that is fixed to the horn can be decoupled from the surrounding box, so I can still take out the horn (with its attached woofer mounting pads and bracing) later to change out woofers etc. This will mean not gluing, but rather screwing the bracing to the box.
  11. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    I'll probably end up with a Radian 951Be, TAD4002z or BMS4594 to ensure high quality high end. I'm also gonna shift the crossover to 650 -3dB/700hz -0dB to make sure I dont push the drivers to much when going for high SPL. In the synergy horn concept, there is not as big an advantage to use a lower 500hz instead of the higher 700hz crossover. Most woofers will also be able to get up too 700hz so no problem there. Low output extension is not possible in the synergy, except if you accept the fact that there is no hornloading down 120hz or something in half space. There is a huge difference when corner loaded though. In any case, trying to push the extension lower is not worth it I think as you can keep the point-source by just adding a subwoofer close enough. In my case I'm gonna use an othorn (or maybe something smaller, but with similar low end extension if possible) to make a 20-20000hz -3dB point source. Business model aside, a home-theatre Danley Sound version would be awesome! A carefully designed 2-way for LCR and smaller voice-matched versions for surrounds.
  12. Droogne

    A large synergy horn

    I literally have the first pair ever build. Omholt and Don Keele were inspired by the K402, but wanted some improvements, which they (say they) hit. Ibought the first ever prototype they build. You will not be able to buy the horn seperately. You can see I'm extremely lucky! I dont have any definitive measurements yet, as Omholt didnt have the correct settings to do those yet, but the in-room comparison with the K402 is remarkable! Way better in some aspects.
  13. Droogne

    MicroWrecker build thread

    I have a similar living situation (2nd floor with up and downstairs neighbours, both with little children), and I also never had any noise complaints from them. I dont have a lot of contact with them, except passing them in the hall, but they did jokingly (and friendly at that) call me 'the guy with music right?'. Both my large horn sub and my 2x 18" 2kW subs never caused any trouble.
  14. After a long time (and many many discussions about different drivers) I finally have chosen a driver and a design for my first build. The driver is the very powerfull Sundown Audio zv4 18D2. A lot of info by Ricci can be found in the driver section. I have ordered 2, so will be making 2 exact enclosures. Enclosure will be 62x62x50cm sealed. So around 158L before driver and bracing. Material will be carpent grade 18mm ply. Will be using a 22mm or double layer 18mm for the baffle. This because there wont be a lot of place between the driver cutout and the internal top and ground plate. Reason for this design is simple. To save room, and for many other reasons, I have chosen to have the sub as a platform for my LaScalas, and for "WAF" like reasons, it seemed best to let them have the exact footprint. This is also why I'll be using ply, to have it match the LaScala. Do I know it would probably perform better in a huge ported enclosure? Yes, and I'm also planning on doing this with these drivers. Plan is as followed: 1: build the 2x sealed enclosures 2: build the 2x ported (460L) enclosures 3: adjust the driver cutout to fit the Dayton Ultimax UM18-22 (or similar other 18" driver). The difference between them is very small. I can also make the enclosure tot fit the Ultimax from the start. The difference is .06", and I doubt it will matter for the Sundown driver that the cutout is this much bigger. Why stepwise, and not start with the ported subs? It comes down to my inexperience in subwoofer DIY and to keep my options open for the ported design. As this will be my first build, start with something small, cheap and simple seems the best way. That way I can see what tools I need to upgrade or buy for the more complex (slot)ported build. I will also have 2 subs that are moveable when needed, and less of a money loss when I make a big mistake. The ported would also be a speaker platform, but I don't have the mains that will be placed under them, so it might be better to wait till I know the exact dimensions of those mains. I would also like to keep the option open to use a 24" driver for the main subs. In that case the Sundown drivers would go in to 2x smaller (ca 300L) ported subs in the back. Build itself As I'm new to this, I don't know the hurdles I'll have to jump over, and what to look out for. Any pointers will be hugely appreciated. The cutting: I'm gonna have the same people who are building my LaScalas cut the ply. This to ensure the dimensions are correct. Baffle cutout: as said before I'll probably use a double baffle, with a 16,75" cutout to ensure the Ultimax will fit in nicely in the future. I'll be using a regular jigsaw for this. Putting it all together: this is where it gets tricky. I don't have big enough clamps.. When I build my flatpack horn loaded subwoofer I didnt require it, as it used screws instead. Except if someone can give me a way to still use glue without screws, or if I find somewhere where I can rent the clamps I'll be doing it like this: pre drill all the pannels, probably 2 or 3 on each side, then also predrill into the second pannels, this time with a smaller diameter. I would also mill the holes on the outside so the screws will sink in nicely. When putting it all together I would still use boatloads of glue, but the screws will keep the pannels thight to eachother when drying. Bracing I'm gonna copy the bracing from the Marty subs (see attachment). So simple rectangular pieces from one side to the other. Would be around 2 on each side, so around 6 in total. Around 15,6L. I could also go for 2 windowbraces if there is enough spare ply. Filling: Another subject where I'm wading in the unknown. What would you guys suggest? And how would this affect the volume I put in winISD? Wiring As the cables are a lot cheaper, and I'll probably will have to lay around 5-10meters of them, I'll be using regular speaker wire. Any reason not to do this? Not sure yet how I'm gonna wire it all. I have 2 subs, which both have 2 2ohm loads. Do I wire them together inside, and connect them both to the same terminal? And do I use 1 or 2 sets of terminals for each sub? The hornsub In already have, has 2 terminals connected together internaly. Or is this not necessary when using regular wire instead of SpeakON cables? Amp & EQ Amplifier Will be using a PSA2700 amp for now. See attachment for all the specs. It has a 2x 350W output at 8ohm, 530@ 4ohm, 750W @2ohm, is bridgeable, and can tolerate a 2ohm load. What would be the best way to wire the subs? I could bridge the amp and wire all the coils in series. That way I have over 700W (not sure exactly how much it was). If I wire them for 2 seperate 4ohm loads I have 530W each. The Amp is definetely temporary. Open to any suggestions for a new one. Will probably be looking for a good second hand Powersoft model. What output (or specific model) should I be looking for? Other option is an iNuke NU6000 as they go for absurdly low prices on the second hand market. EQ I'll be using a UMIK-1 setup mic and REW to determin the appropriate PEQs for my Behringer Ultradriver DCX2496. Thanks for reading through! Any thoughts, suggestions or questions are very welcome!
  15. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    Thanks for the suggestion! I have most of that already in place, but the 4 pole suggestion could be useful in the future ! The connector does make sesnse, should have gone with that instead of buying expensive cabling. Oh well. About the calibration file. I use an UMIK1, which has calibration files on the REW site.
  16. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    It's not only the weight.. It's also moving everything around so I can safely replace the subs. I got something with wheels to drive them around the room, but I need to remove the carpet to be able to do that.. And yes all the couches have their weight on the carpet Ö So yeah lot of work ! I was always wondering about the speakon plugs, can you give me an example of one? I was considering doing that too, but ended up just buying some short speakon cables. Way cheaper to be able to use regular wire (with cheap plugs). It's more that I dont have them laying around for the moment, so subs with placement on the opposit of the room is not achieveable. I can hower split the second and place 1 amp near each sub. Got some pretty long RCA cables so that is one way I could do it. The second amp does only have 800W 8ohm, but that should be enough to do some readings. Or would that change the response in aspect to the original amp I would use ?
  17. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    It's a shame I dont have anyone IRL to help with this part ? those subs are heavy beasts ! Also a shortage of cables.. I went with speakon cables in the end, and mine are not nearly long enough to run through the room to test all positions.. Will figure something out, but it might take some time. That is actually a very helpful tip! I don't really have the time (and cables or help) to try out all positions, but I do want to configure the setup for now. Starting with 1 placement might be a good way to start. Will help me figure out the other parts like delay, PEQ and integration. Will try that later this day!
  18. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    Will do. Thanks for the tip!
  19. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    Lower crossover might be hard (they are at 80hz, and 60hz for the LaScalas might be hard). Can you tell me why it would be easier to integrate?
  20. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    So what would you recommend? One sub in right corner, and one in the "other" left? Seems plausible if I change up the position of the amps/processors. I measure "as is", which means through the AVP. I did disable the crossover in the processor. Will "disable" the AVP processor too next time ( by setting the crossover @250hz). Wasnt sure about the axis, so good to know! Will do them all together next time. For now I'm gonna try the different left sub position and do some measurements. Will also try some PEQs and include those. I know not to boost certain dips, how do I know which ones I can better leave alone?
  21. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    Whoa! I think I scrolled out to much to get a good view (which was ofcourse not the best way to achieve this). Looks quite different @ 5db intervals true. It does! I used psychoacoustic smoothing to calculate PEQs for my mains (by recommendation), but wasnt sure if that was applicable to subs too. I set my presets to 5-200 to get the best view (without having the inclination to scroll out to see that range, causing a db range jump). I applied 1/12th smoothing. Same graphs as before, and I also added left and right sub seperately. Is this a more helpful presentation? Both subs Both subs (1 polarity inversed) Left sub: Right Sub
  22. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    Also, I took some measurement (lot of different combinations). Anyone interested in helping me out figuring out what they mean, and how I can apply this for a good response in this position? Cant upload it, as it takes in too much space. Below is the response when running both subs without PEQ etc. Both dibs @16hz and 55hz get way deeper when one of the subs is run in opposite polarity. Does this mean they are canceling out each other partly? There is one dip @ 28hz which is only present when they are run with the same polarity. It looks like the left sub is almost completely flat down from 7hz to 80hz (now that I think of it, not sure if I used a high enough volume..). The right sub (corner) is flat from 5,8hz up to 30hz, then from 30hz to 60hz it gets a 15db boost, and then down again to 0db between 60-80hz. This translates into that plateau you see below when running both together. What is the best way to take on that 15db boost? Attenuate this part? Also, what kind of smoothing should I apply on this? 1/3th? same polarity: opposite polarity:
  23. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    For reference. Red = couch Purple = TV/center Blue = Fronts Yellow = subs as they are positioned now (moved the right one into the corner).
  24. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    Now that you ask me... No idea. Read it somewhere once, but I might have misunderstood back then (and remembered it differently because of that). My room is really really assymetrical (an L-shape, with the second leg being the kitchen and extending from the right back.) The left wall is around 3-4m long, but as yo can see, it's not really directly next to the "TV / speaker" wall. It kind of protrudes. Should I try to get the sub completely in that corner? The right corner has a 4m wall (the "TV wall") and a 2,2m wall. Haha, I think I uploaded the wrong pic! This was the photo 3 seconds before I moved the whole setup (except the right LaScala which was positioned correctly) to the right. Will try to move the right sub to the right of the LaScala and see how much the boost/effect is. Might also try to place the left one in the cove to the left. I could also try to place the right sub to the left back corner (4m wall and 4m wall), that way I would have 1 in right front and in left back, so also symmetrical in a way no? And also spread out.
  25. Droogne

    Sundown ZV4 18D2 - sealed enclosure

    Ok, good to know. Was exactly what I was doing know (and what REW predicted). Haha, I should have known that was gonna be the solution (as it usualy is ) . Will try maybe one or 2 more placements.
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