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Ricci

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Everything posted by Ricci

  1. Here's the design I'm going to be using to replace my Othorn. It's been "almost" done for a long time now but I finally made an effort to wrap it up to the point that it is ready to build. Originally I was going to go with another TH design I was calling the Palehorn to replace the Othorn but I wasn't quite happy with it. I stumbled on this type of cab a few years ago while doing a billion simulations of different cabinet designs. You can read some of that in the M.A.U.L. thread. I originally planned to try this design first since it was smaller and cheaper to produce but circumstances led to the bigger more complicated M.A.U.L. getting done first. Since this style of 6th order bandpass / horn cab worked quite well and on target with the bigger design, I used what was learned there to make a few tweaks to this and finally wrap it up. I'll add a lot more info later, but here are some pics to start with. If anyone feels froggy and wants to have a go at building one of these let me know and I'll send the plans. Simplified design layout. Add bracing, drivers, hatches, hardware to taste. PDF and DXF Plans Skhorn 221 print.pdf Skhorn 221 print.DXF
  2. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Great... You will be the first person I know that has gotten their hands on these.
  3. Ricci

    MicroWrecker build thread

    Looks good...
  4. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Paul did you get the 21NTLW5000's? There aren't any over here in the US yet. I'm keeping an eye out for it because it's on my short list.
  5. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    That is good news. I'm glad you verified it.
  6. Ricci

    Luke's basic amplifier tests

    Yep...I emailed Brian about the SP1-6000 plate amps a few weeks ago and he put me in contact with Justin. Brian says he still does consulting work for SP when needed but otherwise is retired.
  7. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    I have heard the TH-50 way back what must've been a decade ago now...It was quite powerful in the basement of the home that we demo'd it in. Ivan also brought a Danley CS-30 and a THspud from what I recall. The TH-50 uses a beastly 15" driver (MTX 9515-44) and it's a huge cab but it does deliver the goods. Since the thread is about the Skhorn perhaps we should move discussion to a build thread on the Microwrecker. LilMike is someone I've talked to for years and met before. He's a good guy and he lurks around here, so if you have questions don't hesitate to ask him.
  8. Ricci

    Which sub(s), tops, divers, amps?

    The ultimate Skhorn performance would be with 21Ipal drivers. These are very expensive and require equally expensive amplifiers though. I would suggest the B&C 21SW152 or 21DS115 as a lower cost but still highly performing option which will be a bit easier on the amplifier choice and cost as well. There are 2 drivers per Skhorn cabinet.
  9. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Agreed...There have always been a lot of hang ups with terminology in audio circles and fixation on defining things by a strict set of rules. In order to be an IB the back volume must equal at least 10X VAS...Waveguide vs horn etc... I consider the Skhorn a hybrid 6th order design. Fun fact...Skhorn is pronounced like the word scorn and I gave it that name because after exploring all the options I could think of attempting to do a horn of some type, I ended up not doing a horn at all. No matter how much I wanted to, and I really wanted to make a horn at first, I simply could not make a horn this size that would perform like this cab. After giving up and scrapping all the horn ideas for a hybrid 6th order BP I called it Skhorn as a middle finger to bass horns in general. Most people think it's called that because it's some kind of horn LOL.
  10. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    TH's have a harmonic spike in what is commonly considered their bandwidth which can end up causing issues. If the TH is tuned low it moves the placement of this spike down in frequency until it can end up in the critical bandwidth you want to use the sub in. Bass guitar and kick drum range...As the TH becomes more and more undersized it exaggerates the spike in response even more. The more the tuning is lowered the greater the TH will be undersized effectively. There are tricks that can be done with the design to minimize this harmonic spike and a very well damped driver helps somewhat. You can also attempt to address it with EQ. However if it is bad enough it will always be audible. In my opinion TH's work the best when only extending to 25-30Hz at the lowest due to this. This allows you to keep that harmonic above 100Hz and above the usual low pass for the sub. This is why I quit pursuing big TH's that extend deeply. Other designs can be made to sound excellent over a wider range much easier. Sealed, IB, ported, FLH, or BP variants. In my opinion for HT powerful headroom down to the 15-16Hz range gets most of the content. It's greatly diminishing returns below that point. For music I consider 25-30Hz the minimum for good reproduction without missing out on the "heavy" notes.
  11. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    To add to this...The K series is set for a maximum draw of 32A slow average from the AC line to avoid tripping breakers. However with music signals this is quite a bit more than this seems. It is easy to pull more current for short durations but averaging even 20A with dynamic content is a LOT of power. I run into this with very long sine wave sweeps but this is not normal use. This is why amplifier current pull is rated at 1/8th or 1/4 duty cycle rather than 100%. The K20 at 1/4 duty cycle into 4 ohm bridged pulls 25A (230v AC).
  12. Ricci

    Which sub(s), tops, divers, amps?

    Those other subs you mentioned are geared towards being cheap and simple to build. They use decent 12 and 15" drivers in the $100-200 range. Nothing wrong with that philosophy and there are plenty of people who've been satisfied with them. Some of the claims of performance have been shown to be greatly exaggerated in the past though. They show sensitivity graphs exclusively. They appear to be smoothed which makes them prettier. Sensitivity is important of course but it does not tell you which speaker is the louder more powerful speaker, or which has better distortion characteristics etc...The sensitivity comparisons make it seem like these cabs are more powerful but this cannot be determined by a sensitivity measurement. Drivers have very real limitations and those may occur at just 30 volts or at 130 volts. The Skhorn and Othorn subs are designed for maximum performance from a minimum amount of space or cabinets. They are designed around the top tier 21" pro drivers on the market because this is what it takes to hit my goals. The tradeoff is cost. Detailed measurements of the performance of these systems are posted here. To reach the same amount of headroom you will likely need to compare on a 3 to 1 basis. Keep in mind that the Tuba 60 is much larger than the Skhorn. The Titan 48 is comparable in size to an Othorn.
  13. Ricci

    Which sub(s), tops, divers, amps?

    Richard, Don't take this the wrong way, but your questions indicate that you have a limited knowledge of sound and its reproduction. You also indicate that you are not experienced in providing large scale sound to crowds. Building/assembling and operating a quality DIY speaker system in a sound reinforcement setting is an advanced and broad topic. The driver Fs is completely modified once loaded into a cab. It has no bearing on how deep in frequency the driver/cab system can play. This is irrelevant. Even the frequency response can sometimes be misleading if one of the systems has far less headroom than the other. I can show you tiny 10" sealed subs that measure flat to 20Hz but these would utterly fail at producing the amount of output needed for a crowd of 500 outdoors. My sub designs and the others you mentioned are from 2 opposite ends of the spectrum. They are not equivalent on a cab vs cab basis and probably not a 2 vs 1 basis. I'm not that familiar with the details on them honestly other than occasional comments from users on other forums. There isn't much objective data on them that I've seen, but I never bothered to look. Anyway there are plenty of people who have built them and been happy. They may be a better fit for you.
  14. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Hey Mark. Sure...I pointed out it is a 6th order variant the first time I posted about these a few years ago. Personally I refer to these as BPH's due to the large expanding slot section, where as a traditional vented 6th order would have a chamber and a port. These lack a traditional chamber or vent on one side of the cones but I don't really care what label is put on it. BP6/BPH etc...Results are what matter to me.
  15. Ricci

    Which sub(s), tops, divers, amps?

    Hello Richard, I figured I would reply here rather than in a PM. Are you in the US? I would forget about the GH...I'm not aware of any drivers currently available that truly match up to that cab except for a couple of $1000 each ones that I've never seen real test data on. That cab is best operated below 60Hz too and I think it would not serve you as well as the Othorn or Skhorn for loud outdoor music. The Skhorn is what I would recommend with 21DS115, 21SW152, 21NLW9601 or perhaps 21NTLW5000 drivers. The Othorn can also work but it doesn't have the same amount of slam in the kick drum region that the Skhorn does and it isn't able to have the tuning altered by blocking ports. Both will produce a useful 25Hz outdoors. 20Hz for loud outdoor music is unneeded really. There is very little content that low at high level in music and you lose output and sensitivity at high frequencies when you go for extension to 20Hz. Most bass is above 35Hz in music with occasionally dips down to the 25Hz range on select tracks. Most of the pro level rigs that do DnB, electronica, or dub don't even really reach 30Hz. 35Hz if you're lucky. A real audible 25Hz will be a revelation. The Skhorn can be made to get down to 20Hz by blocking the vents and lowering the tuning too though so you could at least experiment with it. I'd suggest that cab for the subs for this type of application. Perhaps start with 2 to 4 begin with depending on how much bass you think you need. Out of the drivers I listed they all should be fairly close so go with the ones that fit the budget better. If you want to build tops I'd recommend the DIY 90 or 60 by Peter Morris. https://soundforums.net/community/threads/new-diy-mid-high.11601/ If you want to buy it really depends on the budget and other considerations. The good pro speakers get very expensive quickly. Other things like amplification and DSP need to be considered and can also be very expensive. If you are relatively new to DJ events or outdoor large scale events in general it may be best to invest in active speakers from a reputable big name company which have protections built into the electronics to keep the speakers from being blown.
  16. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Looks like this type of design is getting quite popular...Lot's of people working on them or asking about em. If I had a dollar for every time someone asked me to design a cab for them from the ground up...had probably 4 guys ask in the last week.
  17. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Yeah me either. How are those tops blending with the Skhorns? Got your processing all figured out?
  18. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    You know it's odd I spend all this time trying to keep this thing as compact as possible for being a double 21 and everyone seems to say I wish it were bigger! Never would have expected that.
  19. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    It does improve the low end some with more size. Hoffmans law of course...It also gives more room to fit things like casters or handles. I haven't got a plan for a larger version but this is close to what Paul did with his. 24x32x54= 24cu ft or 680L external 27x36x60= 33.75cu ft or 956L external. That's more than a 40% increase in size. You may be underestimating just how big and heavy this larger cab would be.
  20. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    I'm glad that you found it easy. I was hoping it would turn out not so hard. The hatches are likely the most difficult parts. I wanted to make it even simpler but didn't want to compromise in other areas too much.
  21. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    You are the 1st person that I know of who has the 21NTLW5000's. They haven't shown up in the states yet. This is one driver I've been keeping my eye on. The back story on them and other potential drivers in development using what is essentially DD topology is interesting and may be getting more interesting in the future. At least that's what I've heard... I'll be looking forward to your impressions of the 551 vs the 451 also. I don't know of anyone with the 551's either. Next year I'll finally test the 21DS115's in the Skhorn and that will be followed by the 21NLW9601 and the 21ID's. I'll probably have a look at the Lavoce 21 too. Sadly all my audio related time lately is porting data over to the new DB site. Haven't had time for any new designs or investigations.
  22. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Jesal, I do not know what would happen running the 2 different drivers. I expect that there would be some degradation of the response shape and perhaps a lessening of the output capabilities. Even though the 2 drivers model very similarly this will be a much greater difference than production tolerances or series wiring of 2 of the "same" driver. It would probably "work" at moderate or lower volume levels. If you wanted to get deep into the rabbit hole with it this could be simulated in Akabak. If you have the drivers and measurement capability it would probably be quicker to try it carefully. Long term I definitely wouldn't recommend it. I would go with another 21SW115-4 out of those 3 options. Displacement is ultimately king.
  23. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    The 21SW115-8 might be ok...It doesn't look so good once the generic LE is added to the sim. The response gets a bit "humpy". 40Hz and 110Hz with a dip in between. I don't have the complex LE components measured for that driver so it is hard to say how it would turn out exactly. It's an approximation otherwise. This is why I hesitated to recommend it. I just don't know for sure.
  24. Ricci

    Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    The 21SW152's should be good. There's at least one guy already using those. How do you like the PD drivers? Those are rare over here in the states.
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