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Everything posted by Ricci

  1. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    For sure. Just add drivers until you've got way more headroom than needed and that takes care of it. I do still run sealed subs at home and I don't have issues with driver noise, but that's a 3,500cu ft room and it's easy to do that in such a small space. Move to a 60,000 cu ft space, outdoors and move back a good 30ft from the cabs and it's a different deal. Gotta match the tools to the job. Before I had the GH's and Othorn's I had 4 XXX 18's sealed in the warehouse room and it was just not the right type of system for that. Just wasn't loud enough and took way too much amp. I'd have probably cooked them after a while just trying to get adequate output. I knew that going in but it was a temporary stop gap while the horns were being built. There's very minimal cabinet movement even when being driven hard thanks to the opposed drivers. Even though they are a few degrees off from being perfectly opposed it works quite well. That was a major goal for me with this design and part of the reason I didn't do half single driver cabs right off the bat. The Othorn and to some extent other powerful single driver cabs have a tendency to shake quite badly at high output. When you have 500g oscillating 25mm peak to peak 40x per second that exerts quite a bit of force into the entire cabinet structure. Even 200lbs of mass will shake around easily with that bolted to it. The Othorn has a bit of a "hop" to it in the vertical orientation.
  2. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    I like the sound of both. I'd say they sound fairly similar below 60Hz. I'm going from memory on the Othorn cause it's been a while since I heard some. Seems like the Skhorn design sounds a little smoother up top. That shouldn't be surprising since it doesn't have the little peak at 110Hz that the Othorn does. I always EQ'd that down but there is no need on this one. I don't know, all the measurements say the Skhorn should be at least as good, but since I don't have both on hand for direct comparison, it's all guess work. One thing I like about horns and this cab is the output is high relative to driver excursion and the driver is buried in the cab. That was a big part of this cab was that the drivers are completely inside so you can't hear mechanical noises from operation until beating on them hard. Direct radiators just always seem to start developing some non-bass noises right when the output is getting to the level wanted. There's still vent noise to contend with but I haven't figured out how to defeat that one on a cab with this much output yet. Basically you have huge headroom, relatively low power levels needed, very low distortion at sane playback levels, good decay rates, reasonably smooth response up well past the crossover and all of the output is from horns or ducts so driver operation noise is buried in the cab. It's a recipe for a sub that can sound great and be fun all at the same time IMO. I'm still waiting for Ti (Dsl1) to let his rip in his living room...Still can't believe he has that in a house.
  3. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Possibly. I'd expect 2 Othorns with Ipals to have a slight advantage right near 25 to 35 but that's about it. Of course two Othorns is 50% bigger than one of these cabs too. The 21ds115s should be more of a straight up comparison to the 21sw152 loaded Othorns so we will see. I did run some music through it with the SP amp last night in the warehouse space and the amount of headroom and slam is unreal.
  4. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    I'll be testing it with 21ds115's this summer. That should tell us quite a bit. The other drivers don't seem to lose much sensitivity so it will really come down to maximum output. The powerhandling will go down some but I'd still expect one using even the budget 18" options to be comparable or better to one Othorn while using less amplifier
  5. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Here's a little comparison of the Othorn and the Skhorn. I've had a few questions about how they compare. When designing the Skhorn I knew it would exceed the performance of the Othorn but thought it might fall a bit shy of equaling two due to the cab only being 50% larger than an Othorn. After looking at the data I think it came closer to equaling or in some ways exceeding a pair than I thought. Sensitivity comparison: 10 meters which is more accurate in general with large cabs like this. 20 volts into the Othorn (3.85ohm min imp) and 14.1 volts into the Skhorn (2.15ohm min imp). I've included the Skhorn in both all vents open and 2 vents open configuration. The overall sensitivity is quite a bit higher for the Skhorn in both cases. With a pair of Othorn cabs (adding 3dB) it would be even or slightly better below 50Hz but still quite a bit less over the 50-100Hz octave. Also I prefer the response shape of the Skhorn with its smoother, slightly rising response up to 150Hz. It should make processing and blending to the other speakers easier. This is the starting level for the long term sweeps for both cabs. The Othorn starts at 1.21 volts input. That calculates to about 0.38 watts into the 3.85ohm min impedance at 28Hz. The Skhorn with all vents open starts off with a 0.74 volt input which calculates out to a coil melting 0.25 watts input into the 2.15 ohm minimum impedance at 63Hz. The higher level sweeps are at max level for the Othorn, at the 130dB at 50Hz sweep with 121 volts input, where driver excursion and thermal handling are at the limits. The Skhorn measurement is also at the 130dB at 50Hz sweep but is still relatively comfortable at this level. You can see how the Othorn has started to compress relative to the Skhorn. This is the maximum long term sweep achieved by each cab. The Othorn is being driven at 121 volts which calculates out to about 3800 watts being applied into the minimum 3.85ohm impedance at 28Hz. The Skhorn cab is probably receiving about 113 volts. The measurement asked for 131.6 volts from the amplifier but it was steadily clipping and did not put out that much. 113 volts would correspond to roughly 6000 watts into the 2.15ohm minimum impedance at 63Hz. The Skhorn has 2 drivers so each would be seeing "only" 3000w at most. The Skhorn likely could have went another 3dB further with this type of test but providing enough amplifier to get there really isn't feasible. This is the amount of output compression occurring during the maximum level sine wave sweeps from the last graph, when compared with the minimum base level measurement. The Skhorn performs better here as expected from having 2 drivers. The output is only compressing by about 3dB or less even with the amplifier causing some of it itself. The Othorn is compressing around 4-6dB in some parts of the bandwidth. CEA-2010 type testing with the bridged Powersoft shows much the same trends. The Skhorn offers quite a bit more distortion limited output especially above 40Hz. This is the maximum short term output recorded for each speaker. The data above indicates to me that the Skhorn performs pretty close to a pair of Othorn cabs. The Othorns could potentially still have a bit more output around 25-35Hz, depending on what vent configuration the Skhorn is in and the amps used, but this is expected due to the larger enclosure volume and a slightly higher sensitivity for a pair over that range. From 50-100Hz the Skhorn seems to offer a significant advantage even over a pair of Othorns and that's a very important range for sound reinforcement / music. There also appear to be some advantages on the basis of cabinet vibration / stability, less overall size, frequency response through the crossover region, distortion and spectral decay.
  6. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Hey Dave. Yes I need to get one of those. Doing a little testing yourself?
  7. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Thanks ShadyJ. Yes it was one very long day and I did get sunburned. Multiple tune subs are a bitch to test. You got that right.
  8. Been talking with a few guys about a thread for whatever audio/video related discussion happens to be the subject of the day. Bass traps, how to design a FLH, the state of 4K video products, amplifier/speaker matching. Whatever. Here it is. I'll start off with some points I wanted to make related to discussion in another thread that is getting way off topic. Each one of these subjects could be its own topic. 1.) Winisd or other modeling and simulations. Bench racing with questionable small signal parameters and highly incomplete or inaccurate sims. We've all seen it. It's all over the place at many forums. Has been for years. People base buying decisions on it because they don't know any better. Has jack to do with reality usually. Totally agree. As Bosso said driver in hand / in cab with measurement equipment is required to know what you really have. I said my piece on this years ago, a couple of times. I've had people tell me the measurements must be wrong because their simulation doesn't match it. LOL. This is a BIG part of how I ended up doing the testing to begin with. I started doing measurements and realized the simulations I and others were doing were fantasy land. Started with multiple old car audio drivers I had and trying to DIY a few successful builds using them, which mostly failed utterly to perform anything like the sims. That was beginning of the rabbit hole for me, after realizing that the TSP's and a quick sim do not predict what you will get with a manufacturers driver. Basic TSP's are inadequate to simulate modern, large coil, long throw drivers in most cases and most any driver type at high output levels. Power handling and xmax specs are all over the map. This is why I started buying and testing so many different drivers. Can't trust the specs or sims. Got to verify it myself. Might as well let everybody else know while I'm at it and help the other guys like me out. 2.) Klippel: It is not infallible. I have talked with a few different people in the industry who have said that the setup for a measurement can be screwed up quite easily. It can give data that is not accurate due to setup, operator or equipment errors. Now I'm not saying that has happened in any specific cases because I don't know of any for sure. I am told it is possible though and not that hard to do. Like anything else don't just assume. 3.)There has been a few remarks about not knowing whether the driver was pushed to the excursion limits during the max long term or burst tests here. EVERY driver has been. There is no question about this. The burst testing is only stopped when there is a clear indication of driver distress (usually mechanical noise) in the deep bass or the amp runs out. Below 30Hz the amp never runs out. The one case was the XXX overhung coil. The amp clipped right about the time the driver was done anyway. This was because the suspension had tightened dramatically and the motor had lost a ton of force with the coil that far from center in an undersized box. Same thing with the long term testing. That test is almost always stopped by driver excursion and bad noises indicating mechanical limitations are imminent. Severe thermal compression in the upper bass of 3dB or more is another good sign to stop but this almost always occurs at a point where the driver is out of excursion anyway. The CEA-2010 data may not be the maximum output of the DUT. That info is also available for nearly all systems though under the static charts section. The numbers in red are the maximum level attainable by the device limited by driver excursion. In the case of the XXX you could mount it IB and it will never put out more than about 111dB at 20Hz same as in the 4 cube cab. Power required will go way down as would distortion but that is the displacement limit. It is not going to put out any more maximum SPL in the deep bass. The 2-120Hz sweep used for the long term test covers the entire bass FR. While you may see slightly more output from a system with the CEA-2010 or MAX bursts broad band there will usually be one band or another that is very close. Note that the bursts are 1/3rd octave spaced. The sine sweep covers every frequency in the bandwidth and it will find the worst case frequency for induced driver excursion in the sealed cab. It may be a very narrow small area, but if the driver threatens to blow apart or smash itself to death there, that becomes the voltage limit for the long term testing. If the driver coil doesn't melt first of course. Some drivers like the XXX this occurs up near the impedance peak at 30Hz due to the high qtc and resultant excursion profile. Others such as the 19 with a very low qtc in the same cab are limited by excursion at 10Hz or lower rather than 20-30hz. 4.) Long term versus demanding music program material: DIYSG I have seen you and another poster make a few posts here and there about how the 2-120Hz sine sweep long term test signal here is not that demanding and how some demanding music material could be worse. I disagree. It is not as demanding as say picking the absolute worst frequency for heating the coil and dropping a square wave there, but it is much worse than almost any music content I know of other than a few fringe bass tracks or something that just happens to be sine wave like into the impedance/excursion minimums. As explained above this will hit the imp/excursion minimums every time and drop significant power. If you look at typical impedance curves and tunings of bass systems and consider the high and low pass filters involved, etc...Most music is above 25Hz and will have a high crest factor comparatively. The tracks that do have sustained sine like bass tones are almost always in the 25-50Hz octave. (I recognize outlier tracks such as Lone Survivor. I'm talking 99% of the rest of it.) Impedance is typically high over some or part of that range. The sweep signal only last 23sec roughly then it is over. Yes you may be able to kill a driver with the same voltage run for 20min solid with a music track on repeat but if the sweep continued on repeat the driver would die much quicker. That's why it is considered to be an accelerated thermal test as well as judging things like compression, excursion, vibration and mechanical noises. Comparing it on paper is one thing but running that sweep through a system pushed at the edge of its capabilities should remove any doubt about how demanding it is
  9. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    I think this might be the one to finally take to the local bass competition. I really need to do that someday.
  10. Yeah that was one funny dude. R.I.P. I just realized he's gone and so is Rick James AND Prince. Kind of a nutso coincidence really. Them true Hollywood stories were too funny to survive I guess.
  11. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    I'm glad you put the gasket tape on yours. I totally forgot to mention that. I'm going to use liquid paper or something to coat the ends and put the hatches on to mark their placement. Then predrill the hatches, put gasket tape on the brace stubs, bolt the hatches back on and then predrill the stubs and screw in. What's another 4 extra screws on those hatches? Port blocks turned out well just screwing them in with a bit of strategic gasket tape.
  12. (8) Ported Incriminator Audio Judge 21" build

    Good luck man. Take your time. You'll get there.
  13. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    I'm happy with it. Long term testing done... All vents open 30Hz tune. With SpeakerPower SP1-6000 2 vents open 25Hz tune. With SpeakerPower SP1-6000 1 vent open 17Hz tune. With SpeakerPower SP1-6000 1 vent open 17Hz tune. With Powersoft K20-DSP Bridged as typical Data-Bass test to compare against SP1-6000 Burst testing done... All vents open. With SP1-6000 2 vents open. With SP1-6000 1 vent open. With SP1-6000 All vents open. With bridged K20 2 vents open. With bridged K20 1 vent open. With bridged K20 This took something like 12 to 14 hrs in a single day. The K20 testing is the usual passive cab Data-Bass testing The SpeakerPower SP1-6000 (Single side of a SP2-12000 actually) was used to see what the performance would be like when using an amount of power that could be built in as part of a finished system. Basically this cab took 4 sets of sine sweep based tests and 6 sets of max burst tests back to back from these amps all day. It'll take a serious beating. Probably the worst abuse I've ever subjected a single cab to in a day and it just kept on without a hitch. It's sensitive, really efficient and loud as hell 25-90Hz. Distortion is pretty good over that range too. Anything beyond that frequency range is kinda gravy. The response shape came in close to what I expected from the advanced modeling. Quite smooth and extended for a high order loading like this. The cab is really dead and inert. I did have some noise develop from the hatch with the speakon jack around certain frequencies with extremely loud sine sweeps, but I figured out that it was the wires resting on it and the brace stubs buzzing against the hatch. Those are supposed to be screwed into, which I somehow forgot to do. I suspect after wrapping the wires with some foam and screwing into those points through the hatch it'll be cleared up. As expected it performs best with all vents open or with 1 vent blocked per side. Running it with only 1 vent per side open works, but it gives up 25-50Hz output and the single vents get overloaded badly around tune. I could get obvious air noise out of the vents but it was much worse with only a single open on each side. Of course that's all with test signals outside. If a more realistic playback level was used with normal content it could work. As expected the weakness is the amount of vent area and the limited airspace in the vented chambers. I think I like the performance with 2 vents open on each side the best. I'll probably run them that way most of the time.
  14. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Done!!! Well except for what's going to be a freaking novel worth of notes. I'll get to em when I can.
  15. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    It's LOUD. That should do for now.
  16. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    I'm trying...Information overload trying to get everything ready and uploaded. I'll probably get the measurements put up and write the book worth of notes later. Got testing with JTR imminent too.
  17. Equipment for sale

    SOLD!!!!! XXX PPP cab and MX-18 driver SOLD!!!! Dayton RS18-HO. SOLD!!!! RE Audio SX18-D2
  18. Equipment for sale

    Actually no. All I have is one 18 on hand.
  19. UBER 24" possible Project

    Sorry about that Nate. Edited out details. But hey...Graphene? There's a company starting to make cones. Probably Hella expensive and doubtful they have anything that large planned yet but that is a really cool material. All sorts of apps it could excel at.
  20. UBER 24" possible Project

    I assume this would be the spider system we discussed based on the coil diameter mentioned? Since this would be more of an all out approach have you thought about a graphene cone?
  21. Do we know what scene has that huge amount of <5Hz content? It would be a very rare system indeed that can do anything with it. Even with a BIG sealed system, transducers or IB the typical electronics roll off chain is going to be way down in level below 5Hz. Probably a good thing too cause look at the peak level on that at 1Hz!
  22. Need help with "bass" project

    Damn Scott...LOL. I was going to suggest a tazer.
  23. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    PL definitely takes a few days to get it off your hands and any clothing will be ruined. Good stuff though.
  24. Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

    Yesterday was the day. Spent about 12hrs testing the Ipal loaded version in every configuration with the SP6000 amp and the K20. It's capable and after the equivalent of 6 full tests back to back, I can say it won't be easy to blow one. It's going to take a while to get through all of the information in detail.