djbluemax1
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Posts posted by djbluemax1
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Just went back to view these scenes again and you're right, there's quite a bit of audible clipping in the track.Just went back to Godzilla very briefly to check out the 0:50:00 - 0:59:30 mark that shows tons of clipping on the graph, and it's just downright atrocious.
Every footfall of Muto in the jungle is clipped; the tsunami is clipped; the score is clipped in when Godzilla finally shows up to meet Muto at the airport; the train derailment is clipped; the plane explosions are clipped; Godzilla's roar is clipped.
It's pretty egregious, and it's ALL audibly harsh, distorted, and/or crunchy sounding. I'm guessing that all the big effects are clipped throughout the whole movie, if that scene is any indication. I'm glad I didn't pay too much attention the first time we viewed it because I would have been a lot more denigrating of the perfect audio scores this mix has received all over the internet.
At this point we've conclusively disproven the following assertions made by paid review sites:
Godzilla's mix has very deep bass extension. It's doesn't. It's just loud.
Godzilla's mix is very dynamic. It's not. It's just loud.
Godzilla's mix is crystal clear, reference quality audio. It's not. It's just loud.
I think this stuff proves that even the pro reviewers think louder = better. Sad, really.
Once again though, I found it oddest when the Muto takes a breath after swallowing, probably because the other occasions are accompanied by loud sounds that could potentially clip our hearing IRL (although the clipping during the swell of a wave was also out of place).
I'll have to try watching this again when I'm not so tired. The first time I tried watching it, I fell asleep by the father & son reunion. Tried watching the rest when I woke up, but with the sound turned down and drifting in and out of sleep LOL.
Didn't get the best impression of the movie aside from the bass reminding me of PR. I think I actually enjoyed the Matthew Broderick reboot's entertainment value a little better overall. Maybe that might change if I'm not dozing off during the movie.
Definitely sub-par for bass (and entertainment value overall) vs CATWS.
Max
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It may have just been my copy, but I am curious to hear whether anyone else detected any egregious audible clipping on the dts 1.5mb track of godzilla. An example of this I have found to be (spoilers) when the male muto first meets up with the female and delivers the bomb to her, some of her cries seem have harsh clipping baked into the soundtrack itself.
The effect seems similiar to the dvd dts track on war of the worlds after the emergence scene where the tripod first lets out it's foghorn cry and very obvious/audible clipping is heard in what I presume to be the center channel track. To double check it not simply being my gear I lower the volume from -10 to -35 and still detect the clipping sounds.
Simply curious, if it is to much of a bother I totally understand.
I tried watching that scene in Godzilla again and while there was a little, I didn't hear any particularly objectionable clipping in the female Muto's cries although I did hear some clipping, oddly enough, in an exhalation just before a cry, when the male Muto first presents it with the bomb.
As far as the first foghorn blast in WOTW, I'm willing to call that one artistic license as it's much more obvious even at lower volumes. I'd like to think that it was the mixer's intent to make it sound like that to emphasize the loudness/harshness/impact of that first blast, (especially since our ears can distort very loud sounds in real life too).
Max
P.S. as an aside, while I sometimes hear clipping and distortion on various tracks at various times, it's objectionability seems to be related to how it's used, i.e. in some cases, I find it seems to fit with the visuals/situation (like when they use clipping for jet sound effects etc.), and at other times, it just seems to be an unintentional lapse on the mixer's part (like some of the channels being clipped in the Air Battle near the end of Tron: Legacy).
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How about the storm in Kon-Tiki?
Max
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Oh wow! Hey, thanks for doing FE. Bout time I saw what this guy was all about (in the bass) after all these years.
Yeah, I always LOVED the editing and comedic timing in this movie, but it definitely isn't a bassfest. Luc Besson's style tends to be hit or miss for me. When I like his movies, I really like them, but some of them are just "meh".
Max
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I agree that the bass in Elysium was actually pretty darn good. The overall level of this movie (even the dialogue) seemed a fair bit lower though. Watching this movie at Reference felt softer than some movies at -10db!
As for the movie itself, I wouldn't call it the greatest, but still good enough to earn a spot in my stable. I didn't really have much of a problem with the acting the way some reviews did. Jodie Foster's character is that of a cold, hard b###h and her performance was fine for it, as was Matt Damon and Alice Braga's. Their scripts just didn't have that much depth in them but they did well with the material they were dealt.
Hats off to Sharlto Copley for his performance as Kruger though. The difference between his characters in District 9 and A-Team vs this character were pretty stark and he pulls off the 'crazed attack dog' brilliantly.
Max
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LOL, I wasn't a fan of FA either. Didn't want to sway anyone's opinion about it though. While it had a lot of bass, I found it to be more heavy handed than PR. At least with PR, they just used it to reinforce the impression of mass anytime something big was onscreen.
With many horror movies, they use bass/ELF at certain points to heighten tension. FA just had it all over the place throughout the movie. Perfect example of "loads of bass don't make a movie worth watching" for me, but obviously other people have different opinions and preferences.
Heck, I thought This is The End was the worst movie I've seen in a while and wouldn't want it if someone gave it to me for free, but apparently, quite a few people think it's a laugh riot. I didn't laugh once watching it, and you couldn't pay me $20 to sit through it again.
Max
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Definitely. I enjoyed the series including the soundtrack and have the series on BD, but since he was asking 'why' the movies are rarely mentioned when discussing movies with bass, I'm pretty sure it's because of the lower average levels. The lower levels don't elicit the, "WHOA... HELL YEAH!" reaction as much compared to scenes from TIH, WOTW, FOTP, WWZ etc.But the dynamics are there. IME, if the dynamics are there, level is not as important, as a certain part will only seem as loud as the level of quietness before it.
JSS
Can't wait to see the graphs for the rest of the series.
Max
BTW, I agree that The Half Blood Prince was a disappointment, cinematically and especially for folks who've read the books. The ending of HBP could/should have been so much better.
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Wow, how come we don't see the films pop up in great bass movie discussions? Are there just no huge moments?
If you're talking about the HP series, it's probably because the average level is pretty low when comparing them against the heavy hitters.
Max
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A Series I have been wanting to measure for a long time:
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone:
Level - 2 Stars (106.1dB composite)
Extension - 1 Star (27Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.48dB)
Execution - TBD
Overall - TBD
Recommendation - TBD
I expect the films will get better in LF Star value as the series progresses....
JSS
Curious to see what 7 & 8 look like as those were the ones where I was actually surprised by the bass (in comparison to the previous movies in the series).
Max
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Anyone want to do a waterfall for Stone Giants and maybe Smaug? Hoping for a great turn around.
Someone posted a waterfall of the Smaug scene 'over there'. Disgusting. The added extension is limited solely to the added cuts. The graph looks like it switches between the original footage with the original filter to the added footage switching to the lower extension filter. It looks like they didn't realize (or didn't care) about the added scenes having a different filter from the rest of the footage. Sloppy.
Max
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Don't know why I haven't been receiving notifications from this forum. I thought it had gone stagnant or something till someone posted a link from avs.
Max
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What countries has OHF been released in already? US release appears to be in August. Gonna be a wait to hear that 20Hz insanity.
Max
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I'll really curious about this one too. The scenecaps I've seen would potentially make this the first movie I've seen or heard of, where the majority of the loudest LFE content is below the frequencies most theaters can play decently. The graphs seem to indicate the peaks are centered around 20Hz. If that's right, it's a new one for me.Olympus Has Fallen has got a vote from me to get PvA when you can get it. Early graphs suggests it's a 10-30hz monster.
I can totally understand some soundtracks being mixed as filtered 30-40Hz monsters (even if I'm not a fan of it), since the mentality is that theaters don't really go lower so why bother. To craft a soundtrack where the majority of theaters wouldn't be able to do justice to the loudest bass effects though, would be a curious decision.
Max
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I definitely enjoyed the mix on Oz. Thanks for taking the time to provide additional insights to the behind-the-scenes aspects. Definitely looking forward to hearing more soundtracks mixed at your facility as you guys at least get it. Hopefully more facilities and clients 'get it' in the future too.
Yes, admittedly, many of us with the capability are fans of those last 10Hz, but it's not just about the lowest possible frequencies, it's about creating the experience. We've all been to fireworks displays. We can all recall not only the visuals but the concussive nature of the big bangs/booms. That you folks understand that and mix it into the effects recreates that sensation and provides cues that we expect.
Likewise if there's a 300 foot tall object made of solid rock stomping around and there's no ULF accompanying it (The Hobbit), it just seems unrealistic.
Max
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Marti,
I fully understand not divulging the "how do you..." part of it as that is proprietary. What I was trying to discern is if you guys are fully aware of everything you put into the tracks and effects, i.e. if adding ULF is completely intentional and if you folks have a way of auditioning the full effect of all of it before completion.
If your facility is completely cognizant of everything put in the effects and how low and loud they go and how much they add to the experience, why are there so many other soundtracks that are neutered? Is it because they don't have the ability to experience how much of a difference it can make? Or is it a conscious decision to omit ULF for other reasons?
Max
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Awesome job on the track! And it's always great to hear from folks in the industry.Hey guys,
I'm Marti D. Humphrey CAS , aka dr.sound (not Humphries) and Chris Jacobson (not Jackson).
Chris and I are Re-Recording Mixers at my facility "The Dub Stage"
http://www.thedubstage.com/gallery-facility/
and we mixed "Oz, The Great and Powerful"
Thanks for the kind words about the mix on "Oz"!
Bossobass Dave, Could I ask you to fix our names on your post please?
As for the Sound Design it was BOTH Jussi Tegelman and Steve Tuschar.
Jussi was the Sound Supervisor on the Film.
So guys, how LOW did we go.. ?
So now that we have someone who actually worked on one of the graphed and measured ULF tracks, how about info straight from the source:
When you guys create soundtracks like this with visceral ULF, do you know exactly what you put into it from experience? Or do you test it on a ULF capable system?
Or do you simply know that you've put Ultra Low Frequency effects in the track but you're not sure exactly how much and how it will sound when played at Reference levels on a system with huge ULF capability because the mixing soundstage doesn't have the capability to reproduce it?
Still trying to figure out why there are some mixes that completely neuter the audio (like The Hobbit), when other facilities like yours can do such an excellent job? Are the neutered tracks simply due to certain facilities not having a clue (or not caring) about how significant an effect the bass and ULF effects can have on the impact (literally and figuratively) on a specific scene and the movie in general? Or is it a conscious decision to filter the lower octaves in order to increase the headroom so they can make the higher octaves even louder?
Max
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According to FilmMixer, most of the infrasonic content in movies these days are created using 2-3 popular programs. They don't bother recording content down that low.How would the sound designers even put something like that on the disc? They didn't record that. So then do they do it digitally? But what kind of synth gear will let you put a blob of 1.5hz content in there?
Would be cool to experience that. I don't think I'll ever chase those hz. A thigpen isn't on my list of upgrades. I don't even really concern myself with 5hz. I just let the subs do what they do below 15hz. If they make output great.
Max
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Is that the Ironhide flip? Or another scene? That's insane. You weren't kidding when you said you need a rotary to reproduce that. That red blob is 1-2 Hz! Are you 100% sure that's in the audio track and not some odd anomaly from measuring/graphing?In other news:
Here is what we have been missing:
Remember Transformers? Yes, the 6 year old film. Here is the old PvA:
Here it is with zero rolloff:
Quite a difference!!!!
Want to see the scene?
Single most ULF-Heavy moment I have ever encountered. I have yet to measure HTTYD in this same way to compare.
No rolloff. No player rolloff, no receiver rolloff, no amp rolloff, no MiniDSP roloff, no mic rolloff, no soundcard rolloff. Just the data on the disc, WITH BASS MANAGEMENT.
JSS
Max
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MKT, good to hear the lightning damage was minimal. I wonder how well those surge protectors that go between the cable connections work? Were you using one of those?
Max
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The most 'surprise factor' thing about thunder is the fact that the sonic background is usually 30-50dB, then BAM! 100+dB over background hits you. The most a film can deliver is around 90dB dynamics (counting 30dB background sound on the track, or combo of projector noise, HVAC, etc. even if silence is on the track), but usually is closer to 30-40dB, as the score is usually carrying on at 65-80dB....if not more.
JSS
With heavy rainfall (and or wind) in a typical thunderstorm, I'd say the noise floor is more like 50-60db, but I get your point. It's one of the tricks that they used in MI4, in the Kremlin explosion and especially the car crash: low ambient leels, then suddenly BOOOM! The first time I watrched MI4 was in my HT and I'd had a long day and was pretty tired and began to drift in and out. That car crash scene definitely woke me up and I stayed awake for the rest of the movie.
Max
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Omitted or improperly recorded/transferred for the BD (is the speculation anyway).Supposedly, FilmMixer was looking into it.....he thought the LFE channel was omitted altogether, IIRC.
JSS
And Dave, I think, the one sole instance of a teeny bit of bass is at the very end with the 'eye-opener' (to avoid spoiling it for folks who haven't seen it).
Overall though, as I said, even more of a disappointment than Avengers. At least Avengers had a lot of 30Hz stuff. This movie didn't really even have that.
Max
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Doing some other stuff today, but I do have a copy of the Hobbit to see how bad it is, and whether or not it will be salvagable.
JSS
LOL, I can't wait to hear your opinions and see the graph. I personally found this soundtrack even more of a letdown thann Avengers. I'm also waiting to see what FilmMixer finds out about the BD soundtrack.
Max
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Who said The Hobbit was a shit movie? The title of this thread is, 'The Low Frequency Content Thread', and if you reread the posts properly, ALL the comments thus far have been specifically about the LFE in the movie, and there's no question that the LFE was a disappointment.
You might be confusing this thread with the AVS thread where folks were talking about being bored during the movie.
As far as the movie itself goes, The Hobbit was a fairly short book (not even close to LOTR). I wondered how they were going to stratch it out into another series of movies, and they did it by adding things that were never in the book (not to mention introducing characters that never appeared in the books till later in the LOTR trilogy).
Max
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Oh......well. How disappointing. Studio again lays a huge rotten egg.
It would be nice if BluRay specs are updated to include the 48fps it was shot in, and we could get the actual studio master if/when that happens.
That sucks. What sucks more is if the dynamics were taken out. Sounds like a 'nearfield' mix was done with less than capable equipment 'for the home'.
If they have kept the dynamics, the LFE can be salvaged if a shelf filter was used in post-production, like in Avengers and Battleship.
Well, looks like it'll get a view when the disc is available from Netflix, but maybe that's it.
I am measuring lots of old favorites for SPL this weekend while getting other things done. Nothing new until next week.
JSS
Older article, but I know some films have gotten this treatment:
Yup. And I rented the 3D version. Decided after being caught double and triple dipping on some titles by the money-grubbing movie studios, that I'm not purchasing this till it's available in the native 48fps 3D. Personally, I found it a MUCH better experience watching it in 48fps 3D than the standard 24fps. In fact, I watched the 3D version in 3D at 24fps, then switched off the 3D which enabled the frame interpolation and I definitely prefer the smoother motion with frame interpolation (need to get a newer display that can do creative frame interpolation on 3D). Unfortunately, it doesn't sharpen moving images the way native 48fps does.
Max
The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)
in Bass Content
Posted
Probably a good idea to use musician's ear plugs (something like the Etymotics Ety Plugs) after the technical run through at that point.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B010C8HZSY/ref=mp_s_a_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1501083096&sr=8-5&keywords=etymotic+earplugs
Do the run through without, to double check and confirm everything is GTG, then use the plugs to attenuate by 13-20db, while still allowing for decent fidelity (unlike regular foam plugs which tend to attenuate higher frequencies making things sound muffled).
I've used (and still use) Ety plugs for certain applications, and they work well.
I bought these to try
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B019M576XW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501083683&sr=8-1-spons&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=eargasm+high+fidelity+earplugs&psc=1
for both, the slightly different design, that fits about flush to the ear canal (with small, flexible tabs for easy extraction) AND the convenient metal keychain case included. I now keep these on my keychain 24/7, in case I inadvertently find myself in a loud environment without advanced planning.
Max