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About intgenx

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  1. @maxmercy.. thanks again.. and yes... novices like me do tend to get on the nerves of those in the know... I had listed the features that I thought would make it comparable to a manufactured model.. because at the end of the day the little things along with the big things and getting them both right is why I have embarked on a DIY - otherwise I should've been willing to live with the features/compromises offered by any of the manufactured models... ok not push-pull but dual opposed ... and as for sealed vs ported - is it possible to replicate the Genelec LSE design? how difficult is to implement and is it worth giving a shot? Drivers - Looked into Dayton Reference - but I'm leaning towards Peerless drivers - as they are locally made in India and I can try to find out if there is any cost advantage over importing, paying shipping/duties etc. Parts Express has the - Peerless 835017 12" Aluminum Cone XXLS Subwoofer with freq. response down to 19Hz (whereas the 10" driver from the same line is rated at 22hz) If quality of the driver is the most important - then would Peerless still be the first choice? I know you all have recommended Dayton - but that means shipping, import duties etc and in that case I probably should also consider Scanspeak (Vifa) or Seas and any other makers? Amp: Can't say there are any good local Indian makers of amps... so I'd have to look east (China/Taiwan) for it... in that case what are the makes/models to consider? One of the advantages of being in India is that I have some really wild choices for cabinet material - for eg... Given a drawing I could get a solid box made in granite, onyx ("transparent marble"). If density and inertness is the main criteria - then I gez no-one can beat natural stone... I'll give it a shot with granite or marble If you guys think it could offer some performance advantage...The only issue is finding some good way to mount the drivers and that too can be arranged with pre-drilled holes and filled with some resin for the driver and amp. plates to be screwed on. You have asked me to measure what I have... but I have nothing more than 4 cheap desktop speakers...and the apartment I'm presently in is rented and temporary until I move in to my own place in about a year from now... I do have a couple of decent mics somewhere and I will get the measuring software etc... but what do you want me to measure...the test signals played from what? I've still not bought my mains... which are waiting on my subs and the assessment on whether I can realistically make something to match the mains... (and if I can make a good sub... I may just feel confident to go ahead and make my mains too)...so its a bit of a catch-22.
  2. Folks, Some of you may have already responded to my other thread...and Thanks to all your advice I've now decided to embark on a (very ambitous for newbie) DIY subwoofer project. This new thread is just to seek a wider audience for guidance... The goal being to build the cleanest, high-fidelity sub possible in DIY... as the sub will be used mainly for music and should unobtrusively extend the range of the mains I plan to get (Genelec G Four / 8040). Following are the key requirements: 1. Building a High-fidelity, clean, distortion, rattle free and musical sub is the most important goal - not earth shattering bass, loudness or SPL. 2. Performance: looking to get equal or better fidelity and performance comparable to the Genelec subs 7060 (19Hz, 10" driver with 120Wamp) and 7070 (19Hz, 12" with 250W amp). The mains have a 6.5" (90W) woofer and the sub need only be big/powerful enough to complement it - therefore I'm thinking no more than 10"(400W) or 12" (800W). 3. Max. Cabinet dimensions: 18" x 18" x 24" 4. 10" or 12" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass. 5. Inputs: 1 x XLR, RCA for LFE (with low-pass set at 120Hz), 1 x XLR, RCA for Left/Right input (with low-pass set at 85Hz) 6. Outputs: 1 x XLR, RCA (for LFE loop out), 1 x XLR, RCA with high-pass to connect the Left/Right mains 7. Level control & Clipping protection 8. Detachable power cord with 220V/50Hz input and Power surge protection 9. Auto-power on signal 10. Features: Comparable to the ADAM Sub-10 11. Remote control? Need recommendations/guidance on the following: 1. Cabinet Type Considering Sealed dual push-pull cabinet due to ease of design and build. 2. Driver/Amplifier/Kit Which driver or kit should I get? I'm thinking restricting myself to Aluminum cones - any advice? Can you guys suggest if I should go with 12” or 10”? Focus again is fidelity and not loudness. can you folks recommend the best brands and makes with very long excursion 10" or 12" drives One recommendation I have received so far (Thanks Maxmercy) "DIYSoundGroup. No need for expensive tools, just glue, clamps, a drill, some paint. Dual Opposed 10" cabinet would be good for your needs, and fit the WAF. Build two. Use the Dayton reference drivers." What about Scanspeak, Seas and Peerless and any others? 3. Amplifier: Which amp type is better Class A/B or Class D? Which brand? suitable for the recommended driver and cabinet type. Are the features for high-pass/low-pass Filters and inputs and driver overload protection and power-on mute circuitry built into the Amp? What is the minimum power I will need for a 10" or 12" sealed dual based on amp type and driver size? 4. Cabinet Material: Would Hard-wood cabinet (instead of MDF) offer any advantages over MDF? I also have the option of GRP (figerglass) or aluminum for cabinet - would this be worth exploring and offer any performance or fidelity advantages? If its Alumin or GRP, I'm considering a cylindrical shape with the top and bottom rounded out (much like a medicine capsule)... any advice on this? 5. Power source and what are all the other components I will need to accomplish the above? 6. Budget: What should the budget be to achieve the above goals. Although this is the least of the concerns - if possible I'd like to keep it around $2200 for the pair (based on US prices of components, before shipping, taxes and customs). 7. Location: I'm based in Bangalore, India and have access to a carpenter, metal worker, electronics assistant and may also able to get the speakers tested or measured at a lab in a research institute near-by. I can consider Peerless drivers (made in India - but its not easy to get them locally) - but not sure how low they extend - any other brands I'd have to keep in mind any components imported from outside India will incur an additional 70% in shipping duty and taxes. I'm also posting the same on AVS and HTS - any other forums for good DIY help? Thank you all in advance for any and all responses.
  3. I was hoping to hear a "Go DIY, yay!!!!" The process to arrive at DIY was necessary... Starting with Genelec 7060 and after careful consideration of the manufactured options - coming round to thinking DIY must be the way to go.. took a long time as it should - It was not my preferred option... but the more and more I learn about what is available and the constraints...the more I got convinced that I have to listen to my heart and embark on a DIY... I'm going to learn and do what it takes to find out if I can succeed or fail trying - which will also be a good learning experience... once we begin thinking of designs for use in compact apartment living rooms with very reflective cement/polished marble surfaces on walls/floors and ceilings... where in the whole apartment becomes the cabinet and the subwoofer is just a driver within...we can come up with some reasonable design/performance compromises My listening distance will be about 15' to 17' and the sub paired with the mains should be sufficient for this listening distance... and I want to be careful and not get something that will overpower the space in its sound or its presence... I see the subwoofer as nothing more than the "3rd driver" of the "2 way" mains it just needs to handle the 20Hz-80Hz range as accurately as possible in unison with the mains (at a suitable SPL compatible with the mains) for music and for movies it can step in without fanfare in unison with the center/surrounds (at a suitable SPL compatible with the center/surrounds) for the 20-120Hz content in the 5 channels and the occasional LFE... to obtain the best pairing with the mains - I'm assuming a stereo configuration for the subs... the mains Genelec G Four (8040) have a 6.5" woofer with a 90W amp...for the mid-range... so I would guess... the "3rd way" need not be more than 8" or 10" drivers with 200-300W amps for ported designs (as with the Genelec 8260 (3 way) and the 7060 subwoofer) and for sealed designs go one step higher with 10" or 600-800W or 12" with 800-1000W dual/triple push-pull and servo controlled ... The surface area of the 6.5" ported woofer on my mains is 33.17 sq inch with a 90W amp and the surrounds have a 5" woofer with a 40W amp.. The surface area I'm told I will need in my subwoofer should be 4 times that - which is 132.66 sq. inch Which means a 13" inch subwoofer for ported designs driven by I'm guessing a 360Wamp If going with a dual sealed sub - 2 x 10" gives an area of 157 sq. inch driven by in my guess about 700-900W amp each might be appropriate... or dual sealed sub - 2 x 12" gives an area of 226 sq. inch driven by say 1000-1200W each might be appropriate... or triple sealed sub - 3 x 10" gives an area of 235.5 sq. inch driven by the 700-900Wamp each might be appropriate... So I welcome feedback on the above and request the help of whoever is willing to accompany me on this quest in whatever manner possible... I'll keep this thread updated on the developments and as a sounding board... Thanks everyone for all suggestions, opinions and lively debates...
  4. I agree... budget is the most likely compromise I can realistically deal with in the long run... The Triax and Depth i - seem to fit most criteria - but before going that route and "admitting" failure/lack of confidence even before venturing into it... my heart still keeps saying ... DIY while the head says what you all are saying "you can't, you won't be happy with it etc"
  5. Thanks FOH... i was just getting way too dreamy and going overboard... Realistically...I'm looking to DIY a dual-push-pull-servo controlled sub... if budget/confidence permits may be a triple configuration like the Triax or Depth i
  6. I didn't mention the SVS because they are entirely made in China - not just some components - like with the other makers and the SVS website calls a pair of single driver subs duals - which is not the same as dual-push-pull subs like those listed above... this has nothing to do with liking or not liking someone's advice - it just doesn't fit the criteria... once you have me convinced dual/triple push-pull sealed subs are the way to go - I can't step down to single driver subs... if anything i'm dreaming about a dual servo controlled with a dual passive or even a quad servo controlled sub..
  7. @Ricci.. No offense taken...and by coming to this forum - I may have taken the first step to bridging those very gaps (knowledge, skills and understanding) I know I have... its not a question of whether these can be gained... its a question of whether I have the motivation and time to dedicate to gain... For now - lets assume I drop the customs/DIY - if its just manufactured subs... Most everyone here and on other forums have me convinced that the sealed opposed duals/triples are the best for fidelity and performance I don't think I could get myself to go for anything less than a sealed opposed dual... be it 8", 10" or 12"... The following are great but: 1. Seaton SubM (too big to pass WAF) 2. KK DXD808 (2k just for an 8" dual?) 3. Vandersteen 2Wq (takes only speaker level input) That leaves me with very few choices: 1. Acoustic Energy Pro-sub 2. Martin Logan Depth i Or Get a Rythmik kit for a DIY dual/quad opposed servo controlled sub (with possible dual passive drivers?) - this will be the ultimate in my opinion and this option will mean I'm going to have to invest the time and motivation to bridge all the gaps in knowledge that I'm painfully aware of ... my heart is now with DIY and head says "First of all, can you do it? Second are you gonna be happy with the result? With fidelity being the goal and not proving that I can make a sub for myself" and all of my present knowledge (and the knowledge that I don't have enough knowledge yet) - I couldn't have obtained without posting in the many forums... as each forum has given me many little nuggets of information to slowly piece together the puzzle...so thanks everyone...especially the ones who have posted detailed enough educative replies...
  8. I think if the custom made options turn-out to be expensive/unviable - I will keep my options open for a DIY - In which case should I consider drivers from Peerless Fabrikkerne India? peerlessaudio. com How good are their 10", 12" drivers in comparison to whatever else is the best in this segment? It may save me quite a bit on hassles with the notoriously corrupt and inefficient Indian customs and the high duties...and the weakening Rupee (just went down by 15% in the last month) has put serious dents into my original budgets... If not which makes and models are the best drivers for 10" or 12" sub-woofers? What is the ideal material for a subwoofer driver if price were no concern? Aluminum, paper, kevlar etc? What is the ideal material for a subwoofer cabinet if price were no concern? MDF, Hard-wood, Solid Aluminum, GRP (fiberglass) - any others? If Hardwood works as good as or better than MDF in teh resonance dept - then I know West African Ebony (Diospyros crassiflora) (used for piano keys) will be the ideal - but not available easily and too expensive... which other ones? - I can get some really good solid hardwoods like teak, sheesham (Dalbergia sissoo), mango wood, jack wood, african padauk (pterocarpus) etc..
  9. Thanks for the realistic picture... I see your point one of the 3 has to give... and we know "size matters" (as it comes under the WAF - so that will be the last to give...) it may have to start with giving in on the country of origin and end with giving in on the budget... I'll try to approach the four Masters of the Game you listed for custom solution and see what the estimate is... (Mark Seaton - I've already sent a PM, any leads on how to get in touch with the others?) Yeah.. I forgot about the tuning aspect of DIY... they don't tell you how hard it can be when people recommend a DIY... Has someone created a set of "forewarnings/disclaimers"... listing the "Do not venture into DIY - if you can't do this, this and that and don't try to do it if you don't have this, this and that... therefore...if something along the lines of the Sunfire TS-EQ-10 - which has most of the specs I'm looking for in a sub except the country of origin and the unknown SQ...can't be put together in a DIY... and by now its clear that I'd have to be ok with something that has some Chinese components for where its absolutely needed...
  10. Yes... "Size does matter" and in my case its too big for the wife... I meant the Seaton SubM... its mere "physical size... nothing else... in our apartment it would simply look like a fridge placed to one corner... The max. dimensions I've been able to finagle: 18" W x 18" D x 24" H and unless he does a compact for me and there may be a few others who are interested... JTR's don't have duals - for this reason I'll set them aside - unless they do customs as well... may be I'll try to see if I could do a custom with... Selah or Rhythmik (I thought someone said these were made in China? that's why I took it off the list, could someone confirm)... If I'm willing to go down the China route - I know I could go for Kreisel, SVS, Hsu, Sunfire etc etc...Pl. lets just drop those brands that are made in China... Apart from the ML Depth i and Acoustic Engergy Pro-sub, I'm now seriously exploring custom and DIY options for a compact 10" dual active sub with a single passive radiator and may go for 2 of these. Not sure what they will cost me in DIY or custom... but based on what I'm seeing on the DIY forums a dual 10" - my vague estimate is it should cost no more than $1000 each. @FOH Thanks for the note regarding your family coming round, that gives me hope...
  11. @FOH, Thanks but I think I've been misunderstood. not sure why people here seem to be saying I haven't heeded any advice... Granted I haven't gone for any of the Chinese made subs but I'm 100% sold on the Seaton SubMs - but after I showed the dimensions and some pics to my wife... she said "too big and there ends the matter"... I've msgd Mark Seaton on the possibility of doing a custom 10" compact sub and I'm ready to order a pair or if the price is right even 3. but now that I'm sold on the Seaton - how could I go for anything less or any other brand - unless Mark himself suggests something else... so if he is unable to do a custom one for me ... and the Martin Logan Depth i and Acoustic Energy Pro-sub are 2nd best in the price category and there seem to be no other choices - then what am I do other than DIY?
  12. Folks, the Seaton SubMs are having a hard time with the WAF. A smaller but 2 sub stereo configuration can clear the WAF than one large SubM... Seaton may have offered a Compact sub some time back.. any one know the details of that and if he will be offering it in the future? May be he will do a short production run of some 10" duals subs... I've been slowly opening up to the idea of a DIY...for which there are many enthusiasts willing to help for nothing more than the thrill of having helped a fellow DIYer. What are the features/parameters that I should expect in my sub? I'm thinking the following: Must have: 1. 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass. 2. Sealed cabinet - easier to design and build - than having to optimize or tune the port etc which can be quite complex. 3. Low pass filter for drive protection 4. Needs to have XLR, RCA - gold plated inputs 5. Max. Cabinet dimensions: 18" x 18" x 24" 6. Level control 7. Clipping and Power surge protection 8. Auto-power on signal 9. No compromise on finish and looks etc... Nice to haves: 1. Should I consider adding dual passive radiators as well? a quad driver active/passive design? 2. Cross-over adjustment? 3. Is it advisable to use Hard-wood for cabinet instead of MDF? (other than cost - are there any other advantages to MDF - how about an all aluminum cabinet?) 4. Liquid cooled amplifier - like for a PC? 5. Parallel XLR, RCA (pass through same as input) outputs for daisy chaining 6. High pass filter out for connecting the L/R in stereo mode for 2ch music? I will probably have to take the DIY ideas/discussions onto a different thread or should I continue to keep this thread active...
  13. ok so its Seaton SubM vs Martin Logan Depth i vs Acoustic Energy Pro-Sub vs Genelec 7060 vs 2 x ADAM Sub 10 vs 2 X Focal CMSSub vs Neumann KH810 WAF apart - not sure if it will be completely worth it to jump to the next higher price bracket: Paradigm - Sub 1 vs Martin Logan - Descent i vs Genelec 7070 or 2 x 7060 in which case do other competitors like PMC, ATC enter the picture?
  14. and Martin Logan - Depth i and Descent i the Martin Logan Depth i - surely fits the budget, size, brand and performance wise...and i believe its made in Canada... the only minor issue is that - it has no XLR input... (available on the Descent i - which goes into the $3200 category). Dont you think XLR input is something a serious hi-fidelity equipment at the $2200 price point ought to have...not sure why Martin Logan cheaped out on such a small thing. Not knowing where in the room it will need to be placed and the Depth/Descent i are apparently known for requiring much more precise placement than other single/dual subs - I'd surely like to run balanced cables if need be (because the Genelec G4 and G3 speakers have both RCA and XLR).
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