Jump to content

FOH

Members
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Posts

    124

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    3

 Content Type 

Everything posted by FOH

  1. FOH
    The film and music industry are certainly different, however the loudness wars in the music industry have created a groundswell of opposition. Industry heavies recognize how they got there, and are examining loudness normalization in the near future. If the client wants it released a certain way, that's what they get. Sure, the mix and mastering engineers can point out the inherent issues. However we've all been in situations where the shot caller prevails, regardless of being right or wrong. Bob Katz, one engineer leading the battle against such practices, often presents the case against the compressed sound of the loudness wars. Here's a fantastic video presentation briefly yet very detailed illustrating how things were in the heyday of low compression, how loudness wars moved so swiftly; http://www.digido.com/articles-and-demos12/15-other-audio-articles/33-loudness-war.html It's a great explanation, I find his work very compelling. There's much out there wrt loudness, pushback etc, but Katz seems to offer the best, most concise information. We can hope those in the film industry recognize the myopic choices being made, and educate their clients and shot callers. With regard to the film industry, there's still a lot of solid work being released to us, and that we can be thankful for.
  2. FOH
    JSS, "Curious that you ask.....I ran some experiments on this very thing. It is a 100Hz waveform just to the right of center, with 0.01sec period. If I generate a 100Hz waveform at -0.5dBFS, and amplify it by 6dB (clipping it all to Hell), then turn it down by 2dB, I get almost the same waveform displayed (clipped at -2dBFS). When played back, it sounds like a bad fuzz pedal, and definitely not like a clean tone, all odd-order harmonics. But if I apply a 250Hz lowpass at 12dB/octave to the clipped signal, it then appears to be soft-limited, with smoother edges, and has a much nicer distortion profile, and sounds like a moderate tube overdrive, instead of a hard fuzz. Still odd-orders, but only the 300Hz component is readily audible. It sounds much cleaner. If the mixing stages have lowpass circuitry built into their signal chains, nothing will warn them that they are clipping the LFE channel, as it will only sound mildly overdriven. They may find that if they remove lowpasses from it, that they run into bad sounds with hard limiting or 0dBFS. I think that they may be oblivious due to the lowpasses that may be in place, both on the board, and in the crossover/amp chain. I usually see clipping in the center channel first, then LR, and then surrounds, then LFE. I see the least amount of clipping on the LFE channel, but when it is there (Immortals, The Hurt Locker), it is pretty bad, but may be insignificant due to processing in amps, an AVR or mixing board" "Maybe because all of those systems low-passed. The difference is night and day. See attached. 100Hz Sine, 100Hz clipped waveform, 250Hz lowpass, 120Hz lowpass.....The 120Hz lowpass has less than 4% harmonic distortion, with the 300Hz component over 32dB down from the 100Hz fundamental. With LCRS blaring at the same time, no trained ear would pick that up, it would all be masked." "Immortals clipped every channel, but it was nearly pure ULF square waves on some portions of the LFE. With a ULF Square wave, that's a LOT of LF and midbass harmonics, which are audible and dissonant. Again, it may have been intentional, they may have wanted the odd harmonics in order for a 'louder sounding' sound.....Poseidon slamming into the sea and the resultant oil tsunami is a pretty bad scene for distorted sound...." "But Tron:Legacy, famous for clipping every other channel, had a pristine, clip-free LFE channel......" I really appreciate the thorough response, interesting. LFE overload/clipping is something I've not given a great deal of consideration to. Never saw Immortals, but I do recall seeing much discussion regarding the clipping, but not interested, I glossed right over it. Thanks
  3. FOH
    Never seen any Hellboy, never seen Epic. How about Open Range? It is 10 years ago or so, but a good film and exhilarating gunfire. I seem to remember energy all the way down,...but I'm uncertain about the characteristics; ie., how often and how deep. It's demo worthy stuff regardless how deep. One of the finest gunfights ever produced. You're right, I agree. The Hurt Locker is a great film, and the sound, in all aspects, is just fantastic. How significant is the clipping you illustrated in the submitted image? What I mean is how often do you encounter that heavily lopped off clipping, and can you or anyone quantify the subjective end result? How would that sound? You've been pouring through all these soundtracks, there would be few (if anyone) outside the industry more adept to assign some relative importance to such an occurrence. I realize unless we had an interview with the sound team that participated, we're not going to know for sure. But wth, we can speculate. As you said it could be intentional, for effect, etc. But there are soundtracks that possess what many would consider inexcusable mistakes. I've performed my share of live recording, even sound effects. For fidelity reasons, you always want to hit the media as hot as possible without overload. It could've been anything from a clip that they really needed to include despite it's clipping. Or just as simple as aggressive limiting by design. Although I've not read or participated in any such discussions, I'm guessing this issue has been fully explored before. I'm curious what the LFE signal sounds like as one bumps it up until severely flat topped like that. Anyone here performed such experiments? With the inherent filtering accompanying the LFE channel, I'm wondering what subjective audible effect such flat topping has on the final result. Another way to ram more average level down the pipe? The LF drives aren't going to track the horizontal component of the signal, so is this intentional simply for more level? Any idea of the approx. freq range of the waveform? Looks like ~50hz or so, in the center of the graph. I've experienced The Hurt Locker over many occasions/many systems. Actually, it's my experience that it's used quite often in CEDIA/tradeshow demonstrations. In addition to my own system, I've seen it over some bad-ass, highly capable systems. I've not been actively looking for issues, but I've never heard anything but first rate audio excellence out of that release. Maybe I need to pay closer attention, is there any release known for audible LFE channel clipping issues? Thanks
  4. FOH
    What trick would that be?
  5. FOH
    Decent, not great is about right. I don't have excessively high hopes for a Stallone flick, and this is about the max of his talent, IMO. So maybe that affected me liking it and I didn't feel it was a waste of time. What did you think about the music, up front in the mix and used during transitional scene-to-scene segues?
  6. FOH
    Getting back to this, I enjoyed all aspects of Phantom. Without spoilers for those yet to see it,... I thought the cast was great, the fact based premise, and I dig a nice submarine flick? Ever since I saw Run Silent, Run Deep, in my youth, I've really enjoyed all the elements that make up such films. Little did I know back then that eventually my closest professional colleague, in addition to another close friend from high school, both spent many years in the US Navy including long stints at sea as submariners. One, served during the same years that the film was based upon. And the other served through the 80's. Anyway the stories shared were remarkable to say the least, often focusing on the typical cat-and-mouse games that are prevalent out at sea. As stated previously in this thread, the surround was nicely done and the effects had the expected weight and other characteristics that make for a good ride. Most all the big explosions were nice, but one effect that was good enough for replay, after replay, was some handgun fire with some surprisingly nice full and deep thumpage on at least one occasion. This is a great example of what can be made with a very modest budget of 18 million. Big productions routinely encounter the quarter billion mark these days, some even higher. In hindsight I applaud what's been created here with this type of budget. For some perspective, Beverly Hills Cop 2, over 25 years ago cost more to make then Phantom! Going back even further, Mutiny on the Bounty, in '62 cost more to make! I only mention this because I, like many, love the big, outrageously expensive, over the top, action blockbuster productions that typically produce the soundtracks we crave. I had Phantom in my hand in the Family Video, only to perform a quick phone search and see what the budget was. Since I'd never heard of the film, I used that budget info to determine if I'd rent it or not. Seeing 18 mil, I put it down, ... only to find a solid recommendation here a short time later. Oh well, my loss. On a semi related note, I've strongly recommended Breaking Bad over the last couple years to everyone I can. The new season started this past week, and damn the sound quality is second to none for a TV production. If one is interested, I recommend starting at the beginning, season one,...extraordinary. Those that currently follow, I'm guessing you already enjoy the sublime audio.. it's really that good. Thanks
  7. FOH
    Have yet to have the opportunity. We did view Oblivion, which we enjoyed immensely.
  8. FOH
    Picked up both Phantom and Oblivion this afternoon, I'll submit a vote on Phantom asap. I appreciate the comments wrt clipping, thorough, as always.
  9. FOH
    Thanks for Oblivion, that's one of many I've been looking forward to. Not so much wrt the cast, effects, etc, but the premise seems pretty cool. Now, reading the early analysis of the soundtrack it's even more exciting. Thanks for the graphs. I've enjoyed reading your comments as your system has morphed along the way. Likewise, I'd enjoy your take on IB subwoofing too. Regarding your concern about wall flex; if you employ an opposed manifold scenario, then any concern transfers from mechanical/reactionary motion, toward pressure based movement,... which I suspect would be easier to deal with as the forces are more equally distributed and dealt with accordingly. And even if you went with a straight-front loaded array, the forces .. although quite strong, can be dealt with brute force mass and bracing. Re IB vs. other approaches ... IMO, the vast majority of enthusiasts would be better off pursuing multiple small-sealed, distributed and employing some sound-field management techniques for optimization (filtering/time alignment). This topic is really dedicated thread worthy, but wth ... briefly ... I'm a conditional proponent of IB, being quite happy with my own results, but it's not suitable for everybody's room and scenario. De-constructed, an IB is a sealed sub, without the inherent small box impediments (but it brings it's own limitations too). Both of the two theoretical characteristic advantages that IBs possess, 1.) native efficiency/sensitivity in the lowest octaves (and all the secondary benefits related to that), 2.) the large backspace (and how one can eliminate any potential latent backspace energy impacting the driver's output, etc). Both of these entirely depend on design and implementation. The backspace requirements are somewhat of a continuum between a small sealed and infinitely large. There's many successful builds representing all backspace sizes. Clearly the drivers can overcome whatever any smallish "quasi" IB airspace presents to them. But IMO, there's real benefits to a truly "infinitely" large backspace with clear area immediately around the driver. Nothing jaw dropping, and perhaps quite subtle to many, ... but significant enough to pursue if the overall situation presented itself accordingly. In addition to the attributes the baffle wall, employing such a technique really elevates the importance of the rear wall's acoustic characteristics. Nothing that can't easily be dealt with, but for a higher degree of post build satisfaction/performance, being mindful of the simple caveats and best rear wall practices would pay off. Good luck About how often do you encounter such clipping, and how significant is this in use? Thanks
  10. FOH
    It's not said often enough, max, nube, bosso, MK, et al, as always the effort is greatly appreciated. All the best
  11. FOH
    Gotcha, and stand corrected. I'm not concerned with your system electronics or transducers ... at either end, as your attention to detail, signal path fastidiousness, etc, is solid. I'm sure those elements aren't of concern.
  12. FOH
    I'm sure they are too, merely responding to Nube's comments. Thanks
  13. FOH
    I felt the same way, killer score/genre of music. We too are action junkies, but this one was just well done. Without the overly long/droning LF, just right I thought. But for me, the transitional use of the music from scene to scene was right up my alley. We crave much more in depth character development, ala Sons of Anarchy, Breaking Bad, Homeland, etc., but those are world class efforts in that regard. For us, with two teens, this is movie watching season right now. Prior to school resuming, we're pouring thru whatever we can voraciously. It's nice that we all dig similar stuff, and they're old enough to handle the mature/violent content that the primary system is tailored for. The kids missed Sopranos the first time thru, so we just began working our way thru the series. Looking forward to Phantom, when possible.
  14. FOH
    Bosso, thanks for submitting the Phantom graphs, good stuff. You're spot on wrt the tension and effects associated with such flicks. Ever since I was a kid, and "Run Silent, Run Deep", I've loved these types of releases. ----- Point of clarification; I know Dave mics from his LP, impressively so, but these submitted graphs here aren't executed that way are they? We can't establish an archivied "data-base" of spectral content of releases and include the LF decay characteristics of any of our rooms. So I'd have to guess these are obtained electronically, as opposed to acoustically. Maybe I'm wrong. Thanks
  15. FOH
    I had Phantom in my hand last night, read on the back something like it was direct to video release. Skeptically, brought my phone up and discreetly spoke "Phantom" into my Google search bar, and quickly read a couple things and decided not to get it for a variety of reasons including a "low" budget of 18mil I'll reconsider, I appreciate the heads up.
  16. FOH
    Thanks Nube "The high-caliber machine gun fire gets heavy ULF treatment" Which time-stamp graph is it? We saw Good Day to Die Hard at the local "pseudo" IMAX, but not over our home system yet. From the looks of the huge current crop of big effects block-busters, there will be a ton of up-coming yet to be released material that may lend themselves to have some interesting soundtracks. Time will tell. We viewed Bullet to the Head a few nights ago. It's hard to say about the deep, bottom octave stuff, but I very much enjoyed the background music throughout. Over and over in the film, the same simple blues/rock w/bass, drums and some solid harp playing. I really enjoyed the music on this one, ... tasty stuff.
  17. FOH
    Nube, thanks for performing those, ... it would appear Olympus is a good one.
  18. FOH
    FilmMixer, Your added perspective here is immensely appreciated, period. It's always a pleasure to see your contributions. I can only speak for myself, however I believe most here mostly understand the bigger picture. "but in the end it's all subjective" In addition to the artistic/subjective components, there are technical best practices involved in the process as well. Wherever in the process they've occurred, clearly there have been individuals responsible for inexplicable mistakes that have plagued various releases.
  19. FOH
    Sincere congrats, sounds really fun! Seriously, I've no idea where you find the time, knowing full well all you have before you. Thanks for everything, it's not said enough.
  20. FOH
    Dr Sound, Some context regarding the genesis of this particular thread may be helpful for everyone, yourself included, to understand what this thread is about. The short and sweet version; Subjective threads and discussions exist in abundance. This was created in large part to correlate the actual spectral content and recorded level of soundtracks material, etc., to what we experience in our HTs..., many of which are quite capable as one can imagine. "We put lot's of effort into getting you the Experience that we had in a Theatrical environment and translated it very accurately to your Home Theater." You have no idea how much that effort is appreciated. Additionally, your comments and input here is equally as appreciated. Thank you whole heartedly for this gem. All the best
  21. FOH
    Good question, and amazing work JSS. As I understand it, it could certainly be detected, even audibly, if reproduced with sufficient level. I'm sure many here have seen several of the same works I've read, regarding audibility thresholds. It would appear several of these studies state it takes around 120dB-125dB for audibility at 3hz. But audibility is but one component of the experience, right? These filmmakers present us with the material and we blend the tactile/visceral, with the audible and of course the visual. Well, at least some of the releases appropriately cover all the senses.... My room/home excitation noises that accompany the biggest and deepest effects (even after I've tracked down all the biggest offenders), are still problematic. I seem to recall seeing somewhat similar spectral content in Open Range. The energy was all alone and high in level and centered way down deep in the single digits. What's the thinking here? Is it the primary element of an effect, or merely a near DC pulse or displacement component of an effect that's fundamentally much higher? Either way it's interesting. JSS, as always, amazing stuff. Thank you for that.
  22. FOH
    You're right, I too really enjoy a well executed use of dynamics,...setting the scene aurally, then suddenly BAM, a full spectral wallop in your face! There's certainly many great examples, however upon reading your MI4 reference, I immediately remembered the really well done use of this type of effect in Drive, and one particularly stunning, out of nowhere big transient effect contained in the film. For starters, the story is nice and subtle, quietly relying on dialog and compelling storyline. Then it ramps up nicely . I don't remember as being much a an ULF contender, but it was likely one of those whereby I entirely lose myself, forgetting to make mental notes wrt soundtrack specifics, etc...and that's a good thing. It's somewhat akin and similar to Jazz musicians, and the manner in which they quiet the crowd and really pull you in with dynamics, only to dynamically peak appropriately at the right time. ---- James, I'm glad everyone was safe. It's interesting that your breakers tripped, at least any potentially connected devices were essentially removed from potential damaging voltages that may have occurred from that point on. That said, clearly a big surge was encountered, and I think you were quite lucky. As well regarded and recommended whole house surge protection, etc, is, nothing fully protects you in the event of the potential effects of nearby lightning, wicked stuff. If you're so inclined, you may perform visual examination of your panel, I'm guessing everything is fine but multiple breakers tripping is a significant event. Best of luck
  23. FOH
    Thanks for the Day After Tomorrow measurements. Haven't seen it so long, but that big spike of energy down at 5-6hz does appear interesting. Examining IMDB, I see Harry Cohen, the Sound Designer, worked on The Patriot, Kill Bill, Star Trek, Nine, Abe Lincoln-Hunter, and the recent Django. It would appear Tarantino likes his work. In addition to the well documented deep effects of Star Trek and Nine, I do recall the exquisite artillery fire in Patriot. One of my fave effects ... distant, yet powerful explosions, bathed in reverberant goodness that illuminates the surroundings. Properly executed, it places the listener right there.
  24. FOH
    Gotcha, thanks, I'll poke around and see what else I find, unbelievable. Bosso, thanks for taking the time and effort to measure, examine, and submit. I'm not sure about a release such as Goldeneye, but I find it refreshing to discover re-mix efforts put forth to re-release some movies in a more contemporary fashion ... in a 5.1, or maybe even 7.1 format. Again, as long as it's executed well. Additionally, anyone notice the high quality/quantity sound associated with TV shows, such as the hour crime dramas? In particular long running The Mentalist, Blue Bloods, and the newer Goldenboy. Blue Bloods has some huge deep bass pulses, although not that frequent. The new Goldenboy though, has had some spectacular surprising deep stuff. The Mentalist, has this great underlying music, with a nice deep spectral balance, and they utilize this often throughout the hour long episodes. With kids, we've got to be somewhat careful what they're exposed to. They dig the action drama associated with these shows, and there's no unpredictable inapproprite stuff popping up. Since we only have the one big primary system, anything we watch has the full capability. I do pull down the subs with news content, etc. But some of those dramas have well executed effects. Thanks
  25. FOH
    wtf ..? I'm just incredulous at this. I've not really given any effort toward learning the reason why, I've not seen it, nor does it interest me. However, is there any explanation bantered about? Any conjecture, professional or otherwise, as to what transpired? I realize there are those that enjoyed this release, that's cool. I've not seen any movies in weeks. I enjoy releases that many may similarly consider uninteresting. But all said, those that are familiar, is this thing really that anemic?
×
×
  • Create New...