Edge of Tomorrow Discussion & Poll - Closed

[MKtheater]

Or take away any big bass scene from any movie.

[Toe]

I may be able to arrange that, but that is quite a slippery slope. What would HTTYD be without that last dragon impact? I'll see if I can do it this weekend.

 

JSS

I was speaking more from an execution rating perspective which obviously we wont ever know since that scene is there and has already had whatever potential influence on people as far as the track as a whole and how they rated the execution, but I still would be curious to see how EoT measures without that opening scene if you are up to doing it. It will still measure well I'm sure, but that opening scene (again just my opinion) is so out of character and place in relation to the rest of the film it just feels out of context to me. I still enjoyed it don't get me wrong, but if I am being honest it just seemed out of place compared to the rest of the track since it was sooooooo loud. If this was intentional (I would not be surprised if this was a mistake), I didn't really care for this tactic myself as I would much rather have the biggest LFE scenes actually happen with something in the actual film, but that's just me and I respect that some had a different perspective. Hey, if nothing else, it is a great scene to scare the shit out of someone your are demoing your system for!

 

As far as HTTYD (or any big bass hit as suggested in the post above mine), that big bass hit was during the climax of the film which is where the biggest bass hit should happen, not right in the very beginning of the film (like in EoT) when nothing is actually happening on screen. I understand what they were going for as far as suggesting a sense of impending doom or whatnot (similar to the opening bass hits in Cloverfield), but they went a bit overboard to the point that it impacted the relevant impact of the bass in the rest of the film.

[maxmercy]

It may be that since EoT didn't make its money back in domestic box office numbers, it would need a 'cult status' LF+ULF hit like this to get more folks to buy the BD.....just musing.

 

But I do have to say, it got my attention from the get go, and I knew it was coming...  Without it, I could/would have just heard Charlie Brown's teacher as Tom Cruise was the pitch-man on TV in the intro.

 

I'll see what I come up with, and I'll post it up.  We'll see how much bias toward/away from 5 Star Exec that one moment steered us....

 

JSS 

[wth718]

With that said how does a movie that actually measures 5 stars in all categories not 5 stars?  Oh, I thought it should have more 30hz stuff more than 10hz stuff?  EOT has scenes with louder ULF than the LF but we are conditioned to be wowed by the LF films are always said to be better by popular vote. 

 

My vote for 5 stars needs some criteria. 

 

1. loud

2. full bandwidth

3. demo worthy scene

 

This is why movies like TF4 will never get a 5 star vote from me although enjoyable.  EOT meets my criteria so it gets 5 stars.  I love all bass and for a movie to be 5 star needs all of it. 

 

I'm not arguing that if it gets all 5 stars it shouldn't be rated that way. I'm arguing that we give 5s for execution way too easily. I have the same criteria, actually. A few seconds worth of sine waves at the very start of a movie wholly unrelated to anything going on onscreen doesn't qualify in my book, sorry. Earlier FOTP was mentioned. There were 2 scenes with MINUTES worth powerful, varied bass supporting the story of what went on in the movie. That, to me, is a demo-worthy scene. And take away that scene in the beginning of EOT--does the rest of the movie have that weight that a lot of other movies (forget 5 star, even look at 4.75 star ones) have? I certainly didn't think so.

 

 

I may be able to arrange that, but that is quite a slippery slope. What would HTTYD be without that last dragon impact? I'll see if I can do it this weekend.

 

JSS

 

I don't think this is anything that can be adjusted for, to be honest. The rating system is great, IMO. It's just us, the raters, who are the "problem."

 

Take away that HTTYD climax scene and it wouldn't be a 5 star film, more than likely. But 2 points--you'd be taking away, what? A 5-6 minute scene? Secondly, the rest of the movie had LOTS of weight to it. From the dragon breathing fire, to Toothless flying overhead, to the doors closing, and on and on and on. Same with Kon-Tiki. You can take away the storm scene and it would perhaps rate differently. But there are lots of other great moments, scenes in there.

[Fatshaft]

This is personal preference speaking here...

 

I'd like that we add a new rating:

We have this right now: This is EOT example

Level        - 5 Stars (113.59dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (9Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (27.61dB)

Execution - TBD

 

Again this is ME speaking...This can be chosen by the viewer

I'd like to see "Bass Qty" rating

 

My example of 2 movies would be like so:

EOT:

Level        - 5 Stars (113.59dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (9Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (27.61dB)

Bass Qty  - 3 Stars

Execution - TBD

 

T4:

Level - 5 Stars (114.59dB composite)

Extension - 3 Stars (just over 15Hz)

Dynamics - 3 Stars (23.15dB)

Bass Qty  - 5 Stars

Execution - Poll

 

I'd like to see this because between this site and AVS's The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts...

These 2 sites are making me watch movies that I would've NEVER watched !

I'm watching them only because people are mentioning that it has a lot of bass and deep bass.

This is what a bassaholic looks for...just like songs...

 

As a Bassaholic, this is something I need/want to know.

I would think that most people here are bassaholics...No? Am I wrong?

 

 

My 2 cents worth

[MKtheater]

I thought EOT had lots of weight during action scenes with dynamic bass peaks.  When cruise was under water my room felt under water.  I like that stuff.  The beginning was to let you know doom was coming or end of the world. Taking it out would be like taking out the barrel roll in FOTP or the Iron hide sweep in Transformers.  Both were short, awesome, and demo worthy(FOTP more than TF1). 

 

FatShaft,

I would rather have QTY than execution myself to be totally objective.  The subjective part comes from what we like as bass and how are systems reproduce it.  IT should not have a bearing on what movies actually have deeper, dynamic, loud, and amount of bass.  What happens is that TF4 gets rated lower for lack of extension twice, execution and extension. It should be once.  If a movie has 5 minutes of 15hz bass where another has 10 seconds of 5hz bass the reward goes to the 5hz movie, not the movie with more bass but not as low.  I like the qty idea, however, this way gets close.  I appreciate that TF4 has lots of bass but to me EOT had the better accurate realism from bass.  I think both should get rewarded in different ways.  If TF4 had deeper extension with better dynamic hits it would be world class bass. To me all those sweeps were cut off to son and not deep enough so if left me wanting for better sweeps.  Check out the sweep in the new x-men movie, longer and deeper and to me much better.  It could be louder but we can easily fix that!

[wth718]

I thought EOT had lots of weight during action scenes with dynamic bass peaks.  When cruise was under water my room felt under water.  I like that stuff.  The beginning was to let you know doom was coming or end of the world. Taking it out would be like taking out the barrel roll in FOTP or the Iron hide sweep in Transformers.  Both were short, awesome, and demo worthy(FOTP more than TF1). 

 

 

 The difference between the barrel roll and the sine waves in EOT are what I and Toe have both mentioned multiple times. We just have to agree to disagree on that point. If at the end of the movie, before the credits roll, there's this deep, loud sound with nothing else going on onscreen, I wouldn't consider that impressive, either.

 

And no, I don't think EOT had nearly the weight of HTTYD. Look at the graphs. Take out that moment (can't even call that a scene) at the beginning of EOT and you have a sweep that gently slopes downward overall. Take out the spike at the end of HTTYD and it's still a better bass presentation.

 

 

 

 

The underwater scene was the only one that impressed me, to be honest. That's the one I mentioned to Nube and asked him to screencap. Other than that? I ask the question again--if someone were to ask you if EOT was better than HHTYD, TIH, WOTW, B:LA, OHF, who here would say it was?

[Toe]

I like the qty idea as well and this has always been a personal grading criteria of mine. I think if it gets employed, it should be in addition to execution which I like as well.

 

Don't get me wrong on EoT, I thought it was a very good LFE film in general, just not among the best like TIH for example and part of this was due to the qty not being quite up there with some other great LFE films. I think this is the first time I have complained of a scene having too much bass as I did not care for the opening scene and how it affected my perception of the rest of the bass in the film as I already mentioned, but it really felt out of place to me and overdone. I am sure even if we take out that opening it will still measure well, but I don't think people would be talking about this one anywhere near as much if that opening scene was not there, but we'll never know. WTH718 posts echo my thoughts as well.

[MKtheater]

I don't think EOT is the best bass movie even if it gets 5 stars, I still give that to two 4.75 star movies in WOTW and TIH but they were punished for too much bass which resulted in lower dynamics.  If you take out the opening scene it still is 5 stars in all categories but level.  It becomes a movie like many others which were done well but with low level like the new x-men.  However, it was there and I like it! 

 

Do you guys reward movies for having so much bass even though it is out of context?  There are many movies with tons of bass. When Mark Whalberg hits the ground it creates bass and as much as a Transformer walking but we like it right?  It was not meant to make him powerful, it was meant for the situation to be powerful.  Moments like that without ULF sound out of place for me because the ULF create that suspense type of feeling.  This is why I feel the execution should be taken out and qty be added for truly objective data bass.  Whether we like something should not matter for what is on the disc.  We should have to ratings:

 

1. Each movie based strictly on content on disc, loud, amount, extension, and dynamics.

2. Our opinions on each movie based on where and how the mixers went about it.

 

This way everyone has a say but it does not change the ratings of content.  This way EOT, with it's brief very loud opening gets penalized on amount and whether we like or not is just a follow up. 

[Toe]

I don't see any issue leaving the execution grading parameter in place and I personally enjoy getting a general consensus on this. It's easy enough for anyone to get a completely objective grade for each film by modifying the grading scale. Drop execution, add up the three (or four if we add qty as an objective parameter) remaining categories and divide by 3 (or 4 if qty is added) and there you go.

[MKtheater]

How does one measure QTY?

[Fatshaft]

How does one measure QTY?

Yup, that's the problem...I don't see how unless I'm missing it.

 

What I'm saying (I'm being a person who has a system that's flat to 5HZ and WAY above reference capable) wants to know what movies have a stupendous amount of bass (QTY)?

It matters, to me, how much (QTY) bass there is in any given movie...of course I prefer down to 5HZ but if it's down to 15HZ then that's fine too! Qty, to me, should be exactly that...the amount of bass (5HZ-30HZ) there is...that's why I said T4 is 5 star to me.

I give it 5stars on QTY because it literately does not stop! (I love that sh:t)

 

EOT has an amazing amount of bass in the first minute of the movie and lasts 20 seconds...it is epic but it's not enough.

I want constant pounding...that's what I'm looking for and I believe for people like me (I can't be alone) it is a great way to search for QTY amount movies.

 

another example is "DEAD IN TOMBSTONE" 5 star for me with qty.

I saw that movie ONLY because someone mentioned it had a lot of bass...the movie may have sucked but it was just great for me.

 

Don't forget I'm speaking/writing has a BASSAHOLIC!

I want to see movies with lots of bass...don't care if it's good or not (movie) as long as qty is there...Me (bassaholic WILL watch it)

 

Sorry for my rant...

Hitting enter on the keyboard and going to listen to some heavy bass music

[MemX]

I want constant pounding...that's what I'm looking for

 

This is begging to be made into a double-entendre signature

[Toe]

This is begging to be made into a double-entendre signature

That is hilarious!

 

Fatshaft, you have got to make that your sig! The fact that your screen name is Fatshaft makes this all the better! I love a good bass pounding as well.

[maxmercy]

The 'Level' category essentially measures 'Qty'. Remember LFE is encoded 10dB hotter than the other channels, and every film I have ever measured has far more content in the lower registers than in the upper registers, almost like PN. So click on the spreadsheet on the 1st page of the main thread and search for the films with the highest level rating, and you will find all the Qty you need.

 

For even more Qty, sort for the highest Level and the lowest Dynamics. Those will be the non-stop bass films.

 

I know that Immortals, TDKR, TF4, PacRim, Terminator Salvation, are near the top of that list, and are likely films that will suit you well. Level above 114dB, and Dynamics under 26dB.

 

JSS

[maxmercy]

EoT without the intro is no slouch:

 

Level - 4 Stars (112.31dB composite, 0.19dB away from 5-Star)

Extension - 5 Stars (5Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.44dB)

 

If everyone would still vote 5 for execution, you are on par with Battle:LA and TIH.  Pretty good company.

 

PvA:

 

 

JSS

[wth718]

EoT without the intro is no slouch:

 

Level - 4 Stars (112.31dB composite, 0.19dB away from 5-Star)

Extension - 5 Stars (5Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.44dB)

 

If everyone would still vote 5 for execution, you are on par with Battle:LA and TIH.  Pretty good company.

 

PvA:

 

EoT without Intro.jpg

 

JSS

Question is, would everyone have rated it a 5? As Toe said, there is no way to know.

[maxmercy]

I probably would have.  Good (almost great) dynamics, terrific extension, and the use of upper midbass >100Hz makes up for the lower level.  Of course, the intro scene pushes it into 5-Star territory without question, IMO.  I like low and loud, but not often.  Gimme lower level and very high dynamics any day (like the Star Trek reboot).  While I really like TIH, it is nearly non-stop, not enough pauses to 'cleanse' the ear's 'palate'.  When this is done properly, loud even sounds louder, and can even frighten or trigger fight/flight responses.

 

JSS 

[Shredhead]

I just measured the voltage out of the AVR on the opening scene for EOT and was surprised at how low in level it was.  I have seen a few waveforms of this like the one I've attached and it looks like it is completely maxed out.  I also heard that the 10Hz was put into the center and other mains too.  With all of that re-directed bass plus full output on the LFE, I expected the voltage to exceed any other movie but it was a good margin weaker than other movies with hot bass parts that I've measured.  I'm confused. 

 

If this is just a sort of square-wave, distortion pedal type effect that is really turned down from 0dB to a sane level then why do all of these wave-forms show it touching the top and bottom like it is maxed out in level?  If that scene was clipped would it not show the highest peak voltage out of an AVR that is possible, exposing it's headroom? 

[maxmercy]

Shred,

Way too many variables to answer. The effect in EoT has near 0dBFS encoded in the center and lfe channels only. That is the digital signal.

The voltage on the SW out of a receiver is subject to both avr rolloff, calibration levels of each channel, EQ applied to each channel, whether or not your voltmeter is true RMS, etc.

Too hard to say without more info on your measurement. There are many effects louder than this one in films, but most are transient in nature, unlike the prolonged effect in EoT, with near-square waves encoded, which will be rounded off by your AVR's LFE lowpass.

 

The fact that it was unexpected (right after the studio logos), and preceded by near silence, and had such hot LF tones encoded with no on-screen action (all you can focus on in the moment is "when will my subs blow the f*ck up?"), makes it a more 'loud' scene than it actually is.

JSS

 

EDIT: Last paragraph added.

[nube]

Shred, for the absolute max voltage out, look at the Olympus Has Fallen - Washington Monument scene graphs and measure it from the lossless track on the BD.  I don't think anything past or present matches it.

[Shredhead]

There are many effects louder than this one in films, but most are transient in nature, unlike the prolonged effect in EoT, with near-square waves encoded, which will be rounded off by your AVR's LFE lowpass.

 

Right, so you would figure that this would be the all-time hottest voltage out of the player or AVR because it is not transient and it is maxed out.  Let me take some things out of this equation...

 

The player in question is the OPPO BDP-105.  Attached is it's LFE out response.  Now some of this rolloff is probably to be blamed on the front end of the interface, how much is debatable but let's not even consider it.  At 10Hz, there's nothing happening to the signal worth talking about. 

 

I use a Fluke 87-V for measurements and I never use RMS for measuring content because it would be a waste of time.  It's peak setting catches transients of 250 micro seconds or more and in my experience it is within about 2-3% accuracy which is better than the spec in the manual which is not uncommon in Fluke's meters.  That is for FAST transients too, like as fast as you can touch something and take it off again.  Accuracy goes up from there with longer transients. 

 

Nube, I've never seen or measured that movie so I'll have to keep an eye out for it.  In my experience, WOTW and the dragon crash in HTTYD1 are by far the heaviest hitters with voltage in both signal chain and after the amplifier.  Some might argue that in the lower frequencies, the meter isn't very accurate but keep in mind I am using it more as a tool for comparison and I think in that way it is very accurate.  I have also measured these movies with various meters over the years both analog and digital and for more precise readings I use custom built peak detection circuits.  Either way, even with the player's rolloff it shows the dragon crash as one of the highest voltages ever and look at the attachment of how low in frequency it goes and it is only a short transient.  It STILL picks up that it is a very hot output of the LFE. 

 

My point is: -out of a 2.1 volt headroom on the OPPO's LFE out at the same volume, this movie is down 325mV from HTTYD and WOTW!  Looking at these waveforms, this just makes NO sense to me.  Maxed out LFE combined with clipped re-directed bass in other channel(s) and both offering a square-ish sine wav, this movie should be absolutely screaming levels out of the player like no movie in history. 

 

I have to be missing something.  Nube, I don't recognize what DAW you are using to import these files but in my experience in mixing 2 channel audio, when the waveform touches the top and/or bottom of the track limits, it indicates clipping (maxed out headroom).  Is it possible that the one you are using is different from that or is there a setting for it or something like that? 

[maxmercy]

Not sure...Oppo is as flat as it gets, and the VM is good stuff.....you sure no DC blocking caps on the VM?  HTTYD's last hit includes lots of content above the 3Hz hit, but not EoT.....the content is there, and is encoded on the disc.  You are playing the lossless track?  When you play it through your entire system, is it also just as unimpressive?  Not sure what to make of this, weird.

 

The track contains a ever-so-slightly rounded off square wave-ish form but does not actually reach 0dBFS in either LFE or C.

 

Have you run a spectrogram of the LFE out to compare?  And just to be sure...this is LFE ONLY out, not SW out, correct?  Bass management would change things.

 

JSS

[MKtheater]

So I measured this scene with a spl meter(RS digital on max) with my subs calibrated flat(according to the Yamaha test tones) and my meter showed 118-120 dBs on each except the last one was 115 dBs.  Does this mean my spl meter is 7-8 dBs too low?  

[maxmercy]

No. Your spl meter has a rolloff like most do. I bet everything is OK.

 

JSS