BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[Madaeel]

@MemX

Yah I just wasn't sure what alignment you actually had since I saw you can do different types using PP. Since you have sealed in a 2000cuft room then you should be definitely be feeling/experiencing something. Even at lower levels that scene is pretty cool. I'm sure once you get REW going we'll see where the problem is.

[MemX]

Love those pics, looks like a really quality build

 

Being able to run at Reference and not disturb anyone is ideal!

 

 

@MemX

Yah I just wasn't sure what alignment you actually had since I saw you can do different types using PP. Since you have sealed in a 2000cuft room then you should be definitely be feeling/experiencing something. Even at lower levels that scene is pretty cool. I'm sure once you get REW going we'll see where the problem is.

Early start tomorrow (ouch).  I will achieve something with the day by getting REW working... lol

 

PP can be applied to most alignments, I think - pretty much just an easy add-on to whatever alignment you're building, bringing additional benefits in distortion, if the graphs are to be believed!  We will see...

 

Hope you're having a friday night home cinema session!

[Bossobass Dave]

After talking to Adam tonight, I realized that the sig chain roll off graph I posted earlier is a bit confusing. I redid it to more accurately reflect the difference if he switches from the Sherbourn pre/pro to the Oppo as a pre-pro like I did.

 

 

Man, basement room gain is a beautiful thing. Again, I'm looking forward to seeing the difference between the SIs only, Raptor only and both on at once.

[Bossobass Dave]

Thanks M, I went through all of the details you spotted on the site and corrected them. I need a beer now.

 

I updated most of it. Will update the rest tomorrow. Thanks again, my Brit friend.

[Bossobass Dave]

BTW, M,

 

The Raptors/Blackbirds/Ravens have all been slot-loaded subs:

 

 

I experimented with push/pull years back and found no discernible difference. IMO, PP is only a valid choice when you plan to consistently drive the subs to -3dB compression, a la the pro sound folks.

 

I also conducted listening tests with young musicians 10 years ago when I was trying various drivers. Since one of my sons was in the band and they practiced at my house, I would regularly ask them for subjective opinions with different versions of system.

 

The drivers with the highest 2HD were pretty consistently preferred because they "sounded tighter". In my experience, lowering THD via high quality drivers usually elicited a lower "musical" score from the musicians. That's undoubtedly, IMO, because most are used to a very distorted low end from lo-fi electronics and especially pro sound PA systems, bass guitar amps, etc.

[Bossobass Dave]

Hey Bosso,

Can you mod sanway amps to your specs for a charge as well? I have always loved your design and stacking in the corners firing up and down is the best.  I have talked to you before about PVC and such but never pulled the trigger.  I am glad Adam is happy.  Adam, build a riser and the tactile feel goes up! I equate it to feeling a big wave coming at you on a dock(concrete floor), now get into a boat and feel the same wave!

 

 

No can do.

 

The first thing we had to do is go to a bigger case (2" deeper) to fit the mods. Beyond that, the mods would be extensive to get the Sanway amps up to the A14K level so, not worth it even if we could fit the larger boards in those cases.

 

You're always good for lots of encouraging words and great posts, James. Much appreciated.

[Bossobass Dave]

 

This was a scene from "9", running +10dB hot that Paul stepped back from the couch on.

[Bossobass Dave]

 

This is Battle:LA at 01:45:23

 

Again, running +10dB hot. Of course, these are the digital caps we made before the GTG vs the mic'd version at Adam's seat.

[MemX]

Simply monstrous

 

 

BTW, M,

 

The Raptors/Blackbirds/Ravens have all been slot-loaded subs:

 

 

 

I experimented with push/pull years back and found no discernible difference. IMO, PP is only a valid choice when you plan to consistently drive the subs to -3dB compression, a la the pro sound folks.

 

I also conducted listening tests with young musicians 10 years ago when I was trying various drivers. Since one of my sons was in the band and they practiced at my house, I would regularly ask them for subjective opinions with different versions of system.

 

The drivers with the highest 2HD were pretty consistently preferred because they "sounded tighter". In my experience, lowering THD via high quality drivers usually elicited a lower "musical" score from the musicians. That's undoubtedly, IMO, because most are used to a very distorted low end from lo-fi electronics and especially pro sound PA systems, bass guitar amps, etc.

 

I did think that!   I have to admit that I was looking at up-down dual opposed (either 'normal' or PP) when I was designing my subs, with your subs as my inspiration  , but in the end they were looking more difficult to build and taking up more space due to the requirements for the bottom and top slots vs my available width/depth restrictions, hence my final decision to go PPSL.  Probably the incorrect choice in the end, given they work out at 11cuft external dimensions for 7cuft internal dimensions  but I thought it would be cool to try them and see what they sound like as I was intrigued by the graphs I'd seen on DIYAudio   I've designed them so I can always swap the 'outie' driver to be an 'innie' driver, should I not like the sound, but so far I'm liking the design.  They do sound very 'clean', to the point that half the time it doesn't sound like I have a sub when playing music, but that might well be because they are sealed and not ported, so are 'tighter'.  It's my first sealed setup so I have no real comparison in my room, unfortunately!

 

It's interesting that surveyed musicians chose the sound they are more familiar with, rather than the technically cleaner sound - I have to say that changing from a ported SVS to a Sealed PPSL has taken some getting used to, personally, because being a bit of a basshead I quite liked the 'fat' sound of the ported, but the integration with the mains is so much better that I don't want to go back!  I guess as homo sapiens we are hard-programmed to stick with the known and familiar for self-preservation rather than be brave and move forward to new things that require adjusting to.  If we were cavemen, perhaps you'd be the one out hunting mammoths and exploring brave new lands while other people would be tucked up safe and warm in their usual cave  lol

 

 

No worries on the proofreading BTW, it's probably what I do best!  (be that a good or a bad thing...  lol)

 

 

Oh, and if you ever want a UK demo room, I'm happy to run it

 

 

Madaeel - so, what films have you watched on it so far?!  I can't wait for you to have some mates over and ask if they want to watch '9', an animated cartoon...

[pbc]

Dave, just joining to say congrats on getting the system out!  They subs look awesome (I think my WAF starts and end with boxes unfortunately vs cylinders!).  We were touching base a couple years ago on AVS regarding the amps you were building at the time, great to see you've ironed out the issues you were having.

 

Curious, I assume you have not gotten the amps UL/CSA Listed?

 

Also, what is the price on the SEQSS?

 

Steve

[Madaeel]

@MemX

Yah my wife can't hear anything from the speakers even at reference with just the TV on and on the 2nd floor you hear absolutely nothing. The problem is the ULF. Pretty much nothing can stop that so that does travel through the house pretty good. I told her id just run it with the 18hz HPF on and problem solved. Love that SEQSS!

 

For some reason when I saw "slot-loaded" I assumed that meant a ported design haha. Anyway you only have one cab running right now correct? I think once you get the other one built you should definitely be able to appreciate that scene in TIH . Dave and I are both interested to see your graphs once your done. I gotta get on mine too....

 

So far I've watched Oblivion, my personal favorite of all time so far as far as AV goes. Dave requested we watch that movie and said the AV was stunning and I agree 100%. Every scene on that 165" screen looked amazing and of course the sound was spectacular. Plus the "coming in hot" scene is absolutely ridiculous!! It sounded like that Copter' landed in the room. The whole movie though just sounded amazing and I really liked the movie itself. Other than that just 300:RoE, TR, and Spider-Man 2. All of them sounded amazing too. SM2 had some deep bass but I think like the first one the levels were a little low.

 

'9'........I'm gonna wait till my wife is outta the house to watch that one as it's scenes are crazy. We kept looping that one over and over to see what it could do, and that movie actually made her concerned for the house haha.

[Rowan611]

Wow, indeed!

 

Here's a projection of your response at the seats with the Oppo vs the Sherbourn:

 

 

And, remember, that's with the single wide PEQ filter centered at 20 Hz pulling down the response by -6dB. You could actually have a slowly rising response from cross to 3 Hz.

 

 

Again Madaeel, love your setup. Those Raptors are a thing of beauty. And your room looks so good; well done! My goal is to eventually build an inert room like you did.

 

But I do have a question for Bossobass. I have a Oppo 103, an older Denon 3808 and no EQ equipment, yet. Just running Audyssey with my one THT. Can anyone go through the Oppo and gain db? If so, how? Would I be using the Oppo as a pre/pro and the denons amps? I'll assume I'd have to use the 7.1 out of the back of the Oppo. Yes, no, totally thinking about this the wrong way? Eventually I would like to get external amps and bypass the Denons. Then I could just remove the Denon from the picture completely. The issue is, no EQ cabability. I'm guessing that would be an issue?

 

If I could use the Oppo as a pre/pro, pick up some decent amps and laptop for REW I should be good. Yes? Any recommendations on external equalizers form Berhinger or should I just buy a miniDSP? I already have a mic, just don't have a laptop; I've been putting off buying one.

 

Thanks!

 

Oh, I also have an older NAD T763, much nicer sound just no HDMI switching, which is why I bought the Denon originally. However, I prefer the NAD's sound, and had been contemplating switching it out and running the 7.1 out of the Oppo anyway. I think I might have to give this a go, EQ be damned. Anybody's thoughts on this are appreciated.

[MemX]

@MemX

Yah my wife can't hear anything from the speakers even at reference with just the TV on and on the 2nd floor you hear absolutely nothing. The problem is the ULF. Pretty much nothing can stop that so that does travel through the house pretty good. I told her id just run it with the 18hz HPF on and problem solved. Love that SEQSS!

 

For some reason when I saw "slot-loaded" I assumed that meant a ported design haha. Anyway you only have one cab running right now correct? I think once you get the other one built you should definitely be able to appreciate that scene in TIH . Dave and I are both interested to see your graphs once your done. I gotta get on mine too....

 

So far I've watched Oblivion, my personal favorite of all time so far as far as AV goes. Dave requested we watch that movie and said the AV was stunning and I agree 100%. Every scene on that 165" screen looked amazing and of course the sound was spectacular. Plus the "coming in hot" scene is absolutely ridiculous!! It sounded like that Copter' landed in the room. The whole movie though just sounded amazing and I really liked the movie itself. Other than that just 300:RoE, TR, and Spider-Man 2. All of them sounded amazing too. SM2 had some deep bass but I think like the first one the levels were a little low.

 

'9'........I'm gonna wait till my wife is outta the house to watch that one as it's scenes are crazy. We kept looping that one over and over to see what it could do, and that movie actually made her concerned for the house haha.

 

Yeah, bass travels! lol  Adding mass seems to be the only way to stop it from doing so - the Steinway Lyngdorf cinema build I was lucky enough to visit in London was using quarter of a ton doors IIRC...

 

I'm currently looking at door options myself, but the 51dB attenuation ones are only really that good in the treble and are also about 4" thick!

 

 

Only one of my cabs is working at the moment, yes, but I am having a b!tch of a time trying to get bloody REW to work today... I thought I had it but I can't calibrate the soundcard to anywhere near what I'm seemingly supposed to (although it seems to give reasonable enough roll-off curves as-is) and now the mic seems to be feeding through to the AVR, rather than the soundcard putting out the calibration sounds and the mike just feeding in to the soundcard!  Making my head hurt...

 

I love Oblivion - ignoring the plot discrepancies everything about the production is top-notch.  It is criminal that it didn't get even nominated for any awards IIRC, they should have been paraded in front of all the industry people pushing shelf filters and onbearably loud/flat mixes as shining examples of what the industry SHOULD be doing...  (IMHO, of course )  It's the only film I watch over and over again because it is just a pleasure to experience it.

 

Is your screen/projector 4k?  Even if not, it must have looked stunning on that size screen

 

'9' is another truly reference movie IMO.  Similar levels of attention to PQ and audio make it a joy to watch over and again!  Should be epic watching the whole thing, I get drawn into it every time

[vxds11]

Congrats again Adam!

 

It is so nice to see a  proper, sealed system again...too many ported builds on AVS at the moment.

 

From a post yesterday regarding a "Martywhatever": "I deff don't want to make it into a sealed box. I want it to play low and hard like designed to do. I could have saved alot of work and money and space if I wanted sealed from the get go.Lol"

 

I facepalmed so hard I still have indentations. (No disrespect to the op).

 

 

 

This is my first official post on Data-Bass, and it is to congratulate Dave, Paul and of course Adam for sharing such an awesome experience. I believe my new build will have to be introduced here first   

[Shredhead]

Is speclab working on a non xp system? The pics looked like vista to me. I have been trying to get it working on win8.1 to no avail.

 

I just installed Speclab V2.77 b22 on 8.1 and it worked.  I can send you the zip file to install over email if you need it.  I don't know how to attach stuff like that on this forum yet.

[Bossobass Dave]

Trying this attachment re: Oblivion: "I'm comin' in hot". When we tested Adam's BHT-15s to be sure they were the actual final version after 10 months of back and forth tweaks with the boys (and girl) in China, we used this scene.

 

The attached file is a vid of part of that test.

 

For some fun trivia on the subject, we ordered a pair of TC LMS-R drivers to compare with the new BHT-15. This scene blew the spider assembly clean off the basket of the LMS-R.

 

Most scenes are "centered at 'x' Hz". This scene is cenetered at 17-52 Hz!!! with some <10 Hz thrown in for good measure.

 

Coming In Hot copy.mov

[3ll3d00d]

I just installed Speclab V2.77 b22 on 8.1 and it worked.  I can send you the zip file to install over email if you need it.  I don't know how to attach stuff like that on this forum yet.

Thanks but I think it seems to be working ok now. It seems that my audio device (RME FireFace 800) functions oddly when it is configured to present no WDM devices, switching it to present enough WDM devices to cover the mic input seems to work ok. I have 2.79 b17 though, is there a reason to step back to an earlier version? Also, is it correct to use the approach described in data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/19-speclab-waterfall-scene-capture-tutorial/ for captures of actual playback using a mic?

[Shredhead]

Mine ain't broke so I never changed it.  Tutorial looks good enough to me.  Have you been able to get it up and running yet?  Get your signal chain gains right and make sure everywhere that there is a setting for bit depth and sample rate, they all agree with each other.

[MemX]

Blimey, killing LMS-Rs for testing purposes is not a cheap way to go about things... lol

 

 

Love that scene though, really does feel like it's on top of you.  Probably a good scene for an Atmos setup!

[3ll3d00d]

Mine ain't broke so I never changed it.  Tutorial looks good enough to me.  Have you been able to get it up and running yet?  Get your signal chain gains right and make sure everywhere that there is a setting for bit depth and sample rate, they all agree with each other.

It runs and is working but calibrating levels seems to report a lot of noise in the captured spectrum vs the expected pure tone using the soho54 tones or a signal generator. I'll repeat with a physical cable tomorrow (though this should not be a problem really).

[Bossobass Dave]

Dave, just joining to say congrats on getting the system out!  They subs look awesome (I think my WAF starts and end with boxes unfortunately vs cylinders!).  We were touching base a couple years ago on AVS regarding the amps you were building at the time, great to see you've ironed out the issues you were having.

 

Curious, I assume you have not gotten the amps UL/CSA Listed?

 

Also, what is the price on the SEQSS?

 

Steve

Steeeeeeeeeve!

 

Seeing this post reminded me how fast time flies. Seems like yesterday, for real.

 

CE is mandatory for EU, UL is voluntary for US. The amps are CE certified and I doubt I'll bother jacking up the price to pay for a UL listing unless we see overwhelming demand, which isn't likely. I have zero doubt that the hardware complies with all current safety metrics and then some.

 

Yes, over the past 15 years the highest hurdle to the systems I build has been the amplifier. Driver technology has been readily available, enclosure design has never been a problem for me and after using several iterations of the Basis the multi-curve box was a matter of gathering the best components for the job.

 

The Systems are being offered as systems. The only piece I sell individually is the A14K amp. I offered a custom version of the SEQSS years ago, but it's just not something that will ever cover the cost to design one-offs from scratch for one-of-a-kind subwoofers, one-at-a-time.

 

I put a footnote in the mailer to interested people but there are still many inquiries and folks who skip over it, so I'll use this opportunity to post it again...

 

I do not offer the modules as passive subs. Using the modules as passive subs with other upstream hardware voids any and all warranties. The SEQSS is specifically designed for the Raptor modules as part of a system to affect specific curves and unity gain so that the long term performance of the modules and the system as a whole is predictable. So, I also do not offer the SEQSS as a separate piece.

 

In the case of the amplifier, it can be used to power an infinite number of speaker configurations in as many venues. If it's used in the wrong application or improperly configured for the application, any damage inflicted by it on down stream hardware is the problem of the user. It's a great amp for a great price, IMO and experience, much more so than the clones people buy from Sanway and thoroughly checked and tested by me. So I offer it as a stand alone piece because I'm sure there are people out there who have gone down or will go down the frustrating path I have regarding power for a high fidelity subwoofer system.

 

Man, I hope you and yours are doing well and it's great to read ya.

[MemX]

Well, that's answered my question about SEQSS availability lol

 

Seems fair, though!

 

An amp is so on my wishlist... lol

[Bossobass Dave]

Paul mentioned that someone in the AVS thread asked if the LMS-R drivers were "properly protected" or if a HPF was in line when one of them came unglued during the "Comin' in hot" scene.

 

There's no way to test a driver that's protected. If you properly protect the drivers (assuming that means limiters and filters), then every driver will pas the test. We test drivers to their rated maximums. In the vid, the BHT-15 is moving just over 2" P2P. The LMS-R blurb says it is:

 

 

Capable of over 2" of peak-to-peak excursion with absolute linearity...

 

I really have no way to tell if it was a manufacturing defect without further testing, and they aren't exactly cheap enough to satisfy a curiosity. We just know that this particular one did not reach "over 2" of peak to peak excursion" and live to play again.

 

The real point of the test is to find the capability of a driver when it's being asked to reproduce a scene like the one shown. In my opinion, and it has been my opinion for a number of years, actual soundtrack program is far more demanding than sine sweeps and shaped tone bursts.

 

Imagine the driver having to move at over 600 different frequencies-per-second, each at a different excursion point, all at the same time, and do so accurately:

 

 

That's pretty amazing stuff, and... very demanding at 2" P2P throw. There are plenty of drivers that may be able to accomplish that sort of throw with a single sine wave, but I honestly have not found many that will do that along with hundreds of other frequencies simultaneously with the curve altered and no HPF... "with absolute linearity".

[theJman]

Paul mentioned that someone in the AVS thread asked if the LMS-R drivers were "properly protected" or if a HPF was in line when one of them came unglued during the "Comin' in hot" scene.

 

Yea, that's what happens when you type out just one of your two questions and hit the reply button without reading it over carefully. I really need to stop multi-tasking. Sigh...  FWIW, the exact post was:

 

Was that with a HPF set? Seems like it would be pretty hard to shred a TC Sounds driver if it had the appropriate protection mechanism in place. If so, I gotta get me a copy of that movie.

 

My other question to him was supposed to be "how many watts did the amp have?" because I was curious to know what the situation was that resulted in a spider failure on a TC Sounds driver. Virtually everything I've seen regarding an LMS was that they were pretty hard to destroy. Expensive, yes, but a solid driver. It was more out of curiosity then anything else.

 

 

In my opinion, and it has been my opinion for a number of years, actual soundtrack program is far more demanding than sine sweeps and shaped tone bursts.

 

Agreed.  I've frequently gotten into spitting contests with people who believe the CEA-2010 results are the end-all-be-all, but I've never seen it that way.  Seems like I'm in the minority with that position though, so I just keep my mouth shut more often then not.

 

BTW, I've seen a couple of issues with your website using Opera.  I know few people use that browser, so I wasn't sure if they would be worth mentioning to you.

 

[Madaeel]

@Rowan

Thanks again for the kind words. I can't stop the ULF, nothing can that I know of, but eveything else you can't hear at all and the bass shakes the upstairs just slightly. If you can do a room-within-a-room and maybe 3 layers of drywall I'm sure even the ULF would be less of a nuisance though.

 

As far as the Oppo goes only if you used it as your pre/pro would you possibly gain output down low. Dave did a loopback on his so he knows the roll-off but I'm not sure if they use the same components. You'd imagine they would but until someone does one, or you do one yourself, you can't say for sure.

 

@MemX

Shit man you're making me dread using REW.....

 

Yah after Dave asked to watch Oblivion in my room I knew it had to be amazing and it was. The AV is the best so far to me. That "coming in hot" is probably my favorite scene ever. The bass and sound combined makes it sound like it landed in the room.

 

Nope just 1080p for the pj and it still looked amazing. I got the cheapest pj I could because I'll go 4K when prices come down and content is there.

 

@Vxd

Thanks man and I'm glad you enjoyed it. We had a blast that weekend. These sealed subs cover the entire BW. If someone prefers to cut off at 15hz or whatever frequency they deem worthwhile then that's of course their choice. There's a reason though Dave always says they haven't heard a system capable of reference down to 3hz. It's a night and day difference when heard. My WIFE knew something was wrong when I had the 18HPF engaged. If someone who know's nothing about subs and frequencies they can play at notices a difference... then you didn't hear/feel a system capable of 3hz. Period.