BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[MemX]

Hey Bosso,

 

Are you missing a dual stack of the raptors in the graphic with the stacks and the drivers on this page?

 

http://www.bossobass.com/Bossobass.com/BB,%20In%20Depth%203.html

 

 

EDIT: 

Also, is 'pleather' supposed to be 'leather' on this page? lol

http://www.bossobass.com/Bossobass.com/BB%20Accessories.html

[Bossobass Dave]

Wait a second.  Are you saying that you not only have 4x Raptors (eight 15" drivers total) in the room, plus another four 15" SI drivers in some other configuration?  Say whhhhhaaaaat?

 

 

To be clear, we didn't have enough time to include the SIs in the testing, so all of the FR and SL caps are with the Raptor System 3 only.

 

I'm curious to see the effect on FR with the SIs on and the FR at the setas with no Raptor and just the SIs fired up.

[Bossobass Dave]

I've got half of my new system set up - the full build is 4x SI HT18s in 2x sealed PPSL boxes, each box off one 2Ohm stereo side of a CV5000 (2500wRMS, allegedly).

 

Even with half of it in, I don't get the fuss about the sonic cannons scene - I need to get REW working and get graphing as I think I have natural sealed box roll off present, as I'm only relying on Audyssey for EQ at the moment and I think that stops at the -3 point?  Once I'm graphed I can identify which EQ option I need - probably MiniDSP or maybe an SEQSS, depending on cost!  Seeing the Nirada Emerges scene from Star Trek on Bosso's site, I neeeed that bandwidth playback

 

Yes. Take the SEQSS out of the signal chain and there goes the flat-to-3-5 Hz in-room response. It mates the naked sealed response to the room gain profile to result in a flat response. Of course, then you need to have the gain across the various hardware set properly at the amp and enough power with headroom and the voltage and current peak limits set just right, or else...

 

Mating excursion limit to enclosure volume (air spring), signal shaping to naked response to room gain profile, amplifier to shaped signal requirement with headroom at all 3 = low end reproduction that only a very elite group, as a %, have experienced.

 

Yes, I'm reworking the SpecLab page and the stack is missing because of a weird glitch in my graphics software that eliminates a cropped part of the graphic in the original (which is not supposed to be cropped) as well as the cropped copy.

 

I should have the kinks out in the next day or so.

 

Thanks again for the errors heads up. It's hard to be the detective when you've created every bit if text, graphics and pics, then redo it all at once after 2 years, then rewrite to format to the web host file protocol.

[MemX]

I know what you mean - you read what your brain wants to read and it skips any mistakes because it made them in the first place :laugh: lol  Getting someone else new to it to read through it is the best way of proof-reading!

 

I am heading home to hopefully REW tonight, against the missus's protestations, I'm sure   I will post in my thread and stop de-railing this one as soon as I have some results

 

 

Congrats again to the buyer and to you, Bosso, for the hard work - the proof is in the pudding and so far the pudding looks sweeeet

[Bossobass Dave]

I know what you mean - you read what your brain wants to read and it skips any mistakes because it made them in the first place :laugh: lol  Getting someone else new to it to read through it is the best way of proof-reading!

 

I am heading home to hopefully REW tonight, against the missus's protestations, I'm sure   I will post in my thread and stop de-railing this one as soon as I have some results

 

 

Congrats again to the buyer and to you, Bosso, for the hard work - the proof is in the pudding and so far the pudding looks sweeeet

First paragraph is like you read my mind, word-for-word.

 

I think I have it right for now. If you (and 3) get a sec, LMK. Remember to empty your cache or just refresh each page the first time.

 

I'm sure Adam and the other members don't mind. I enjoy your refreshing posts here and elsewhere and I look forward to your posted measurements because your build is interesting to me. And, thanks way for the encouragement and kind words.

[3ll3d00d]

Is speclab working on a non xp system? The pics looked like vista to me. I have been trying to get it working on win8.1 to no avail.

[MemX]

That's because Windows 8.whatever blows

 

 

 

Thank you for the kind words, Bosso   I fail hard at getting things achieved but the missus is out saturday morning (and maybe the whole day) so I can hopefully REW finally!  Stupid work gets in the way...  I wouldn't mind if it actually paid enough to cover my Wishlist... lol

 

It's a shame we are all so far away from each other, it's good to meet up and do some listening!  If anyone's over in the UK then let us Brits know and I'm sure we could get some meets sorted out   3ll3d00d is probably the nearest to me so I'm hopeful we can get together at some point for some critical listening of each other's toys!

 

I will endeavour to go through your site again tomorrow, hopefully today's panic situation at work is over and done with now

[Madaeel]

I've got half of my new system set up - the full build is 4x SI HT18s in 2x sealed PPSL boxes, each box off one 2Ohm stereo side of a CV5000 (2500wRMS, allegedly).

 

Even with half of it in, I don't get the fuss about the sonic cannons scene - I need to get REW working and get graphing as I think I have natural sealed box roll off present, as I'm only relying on Audyssey for EQ at the moment and I think that stops at the -3 point?  Once I'm graphed I can identify which EQ option I need - probably MiniDSP or maybe an SEQSS, depending on cost!  Seeing the Nirada Emerges scene from Star Trek on Bosso's site, I neeeed that bandwidth playback

Well idk much about PPSL subs and I did read your thread when you first posted it and then again today so just correct me if I'm wrong. I actually had an M&K PP sub years ago but IIRC they still function like a sealed sub correct? Do they act like a sealed sub at roll-off? I'm asking because if they do, to do that scene any justice you would probably need another four 18's. It's hot at 13hz and you need some more displacement or room size subs tuned to 10-13hz to do it any justice. How big is the room they're in?

 

Wow, indeed!

 

Here's a projection of your response at the seats with the Oppo vs the Sherbourn:

 

 

And, remember, that's with the single wide PEQ filter centered at 20 Hz pulling down the response by -6dB. You could actually have a slowly rising response from cross to 3 Hz.

Dammit. That looks beautiful. I want that...

 

You're killing me Dave.

[Madaeel]

Btw MemX don't worry about posting in the thread. As long it's about bass It's fine by me.

 

Oh yah and my wife is from Serbia. I might have to fly over with her next year.

[maxmercy]

Great thread.

 

JSS

[Bossobass Dave]

here's the scoop on the new amplifier (actually I tested one for a year):

 

First, the "clones" Rob (notnyt) refers people to in the AVS DIY thread are not clones. I've mentioned this before a few times but it seems to have fallen through the cracks.

A true clone is easy to spot from the outside. The face plate is glass and above the I/O switch is a Nomad Link switch. Of course, the Nomad Link switch isn't connected to anything, but it's the dead giveaway of a true clone. No one at AVS has ever gotten a "clone" that I'm aware of.

The "clones" Sanway (and most small agents like "Johnson") sells are from the 'K' series platform. It's a similar topology but not a clone. This platform is used loosely by amp manufacturers from Malaysia to Thailand, HK and mainland China, too numerous to mention.

We tested a dozen or so versions. The Lab-copy case makes them all look the same and the boards and layouts are similar at first glance, but many factories have their own cases and the variations in components is virtually endless.

These amps are all made with the pro sound industry in mind and are designed to run most efficiently on 220V/16A juice. They are tested at the factory to 20 Hz using sine waves and an oscilloscope. I pulled teeth to get a few of them to test to 10 Hz, but that was it and most would not test below that. None of them would send a measured frequency response.

Our application is one that asks the amp to operate to 3 Hz with a hot signal plugged into a 30A 120V home run. That means the lowest impedance with the maximum current draw that any amplifier in the world will ever be demanded to process safely.

After devising our own test methodology, we quickly got to the bottom of what the amplifiers needed.

 

 

We began with a larger case to properly fit the necessary upgrades. It's still 2RU, but the case is around 2" deeper.

The power supply is completely upgraded. The transformer is upgraded and has an added shield and a small fan to keep it in the air circulation stream. The heat sink is copper vs Al and keeps the upgraded IGBTs cool. The capacitor reservoir is increased by +40%. That's 46,200 microfarads vs 33,000 (on some clones, others are less).

The next big is heat that destroys or shortens the life of most all electronics. The heat sink area that keeps the transistors cool has 120% more surface area. 'Nuff said about that.

The cord is heavier duty and the plug is easily changed to whatever fits your situation (not the stock molded 15A plug most "clones" come with.

 

As I mentioned earlier, the amp drew 33A from the 30A line without popping a breaker, which actually has never happened (popping a 30A breaker) during our tests with program source. One Malaysian 'clone' we tested, for example, blew a chunk of solder and board out of the power supply board with a pretty loud 'bang' during a soundtrack test.

 

With a System 3 and a 30A homerun for mains, the A14K is operating in bridged mode into a nominal load of 3.4 ohms with no problems. Again, the main problem with a low impedance load fed by a generally unfiltered signal is current. At Brandon's GTG, running the Peavey amp in 2 ch into 2 ohms each (7,500W rated) and the SpeakerPower amp (8,000W rated) into the SI-24 dual 2 ohm VC caused both the amps to shut down in 2 ohm operation. If we had had the A14K and run it in bridged mode into both coils in series to a nominal 4 ohms, we could easily have sent the cone into orbit or worse before anything became a problem for the A14K.

 

We custom machine a piece of 5/8" thick solid PVC to fit the front recess to mate with the front panel and to accept the double aluminum honeycomb grill with the air filter sandwiched between them. The front panel is laser cut 1/4" aluminum with solid aluminum custom handles.

 

 

The price is set at $1,699.00 plus shipping for those interested. I know the DIY crowd is mostly a bang-for-buck and I get that. But, I've gone through the AAs, Marathons, QSCs, Crowns and various and sundry "clones" for more than a decade. The A14K is in another league and is really the only amplifier I've used that can actually provide enough stable power to meet the grueling demands of powering a full BW system like Raptor System 3 at reference level in 4k cubes.

[Madaeel]

Hey Dave I forgot, what are my VPL's set to? I actually saw yellow today for the first time. It was ungodly loud though and I could never listen that loud to a movie the whole length of the film.

 

Man I love that amp. That top view shot of it is amazing. It's a perfect match for the Raptors and that faceplate is badass. Every time I fire it up it brings me joy.

 

Btw I also rewatched that TR scene where he takes off and the pj was dancing. It only lasted a couple seconds but good grief it was amazing.

[MemX]

Well idk much about PPSL subs and I did read your thread when you first posted it and then again today so just correct me if I'm wrong. I actually had an M&K PP sub years ago but IIRC they still function like a sealed sub correct? Do they act like a sealed sub at roll-off? I'm asking because if they do, to do that scene any justice you would probably need another four 18's. It's hot at 13hz and you need some more displacement or room size subs tuned to 10-13hz to do it any justice. How big is the room they're in?

I believe that when it comes to roll-off, sealed is sealed, so yes, I may well need more displacement!  I have no more room, though    it's an all-in-one 20x14x8 (2200cuft?) lounge/diner/kitchen and I am lucky to have an alcove to stack them in!  I will run REW and cross my fingers that room gain is kind... lol  My aim was to better my SVS for output and depth so even if I can get some output below my previous 16Hz tuned port, I will be happy   Being sealed and PPSL seems to give it a lot 'tighter' sound so I am much happier in that regard if nothing else!

 

Attempting to relate all this to your thread    the stacked configuration is something I have been inspired to try by Bosso's and others' promotion of the layout, so I am hopeful it will reap benefits

 

Btw MemX don't worry about posting in the thread. As long it's about bass It's fine by me.

 

Oh yah and my wife is from Serbia. I might have to fly over with her next year.

Very kind, thank you!

 

A UK visit would be cool, pretend you're coming for the shopping and Duty Free for your good lady haha

 

 

here's the scoop on the new amplifier (actually I tested one for a year):

 

First, the "clones" Rob (notnyt) refers people to in the AVS DIY thread are not clones. I've mentioned this before a few times but it seems to have fallen through the cracks.

 

A true clone is easy to spot from the outside. The face plate is glass and above the I/O switch is a Nomad Link switch. Of course, the Nomad Link switch isn't connected to anything, but it's the dead giveaway of a true clone. No one at AVS has ever gotten a "clone" that I'm aware of.

 

The "clones" Sanway (and most small agents like "Johnson") sells are from the 'K' series platform. It's a similar topology but not a clone. This platform is used loosely by amp manufacturers from Malaysia to Thailand, HK and mainland China, too numerous to mention.

 

We tested a dozen or so versions. The Lab-copy case makes them all look the same and the boards and layouts are similar at first glance, but many factories have their own cases and the variations in components is virtually endless.

 

These amps are all made with the pro sound industry in mind and are designed to run most efficiently on 220V/16A juice. They are tested at the factory to 20 Hz using sine waves and an oscilloscope. I pulled teeth to get a few of them to test to 10 Hz, but that was it and most would not test below that. None of them would send a measured frequency response.

 

Our application is one that asks the amp to operate to 3 Hz with a hot signal plugged into a 30A 120V home run. That means the lowest impedance with the maximum current draw that any amplifier in the world will ever be demanded to process safely.

 

After devising our own test methodology, we quickly got to the bottom of what the amplifiers needed.

 

 

We began with a larger case to properly fit the necessary upgrades. It's still 2RU, but the case is around 2" deeper.

 

The power supply is completely upgraded. The transformer is upgraded and has an added shield and a small fan to keep it in the air circulation stream. The heat sink is copper vs Al and keeps the upgraded IGBTs cool. The capacitor reservoir is increased by +40%. That's 46,200 microfarads vs 33,000 (on some clones, others are less).

 

The next big is heat that destroys or shortens the life of most all electronics. The heat sink area that keeps the transistors cool has 120% more surface area. 'Nuff said about that.

 

The cord is heavier duty and the plug is easily changed to whatever fits your situation (not the stock molded 15A plug most "clones" come with.

 

As I mentioned earlier, the amp drew 33A from the 30A line without popping a breaker, which actually has never happened (popping a 30A breaker) during our tests with program source. One Malaysian 'clone' we tested, for example, blew a chunk of solder and board out of the power supply board with a pretty loud 'bang' during a soundtrack test.

 

With a System 3 and a 30A homerun for mains, the A14K is operating in bridged mode into a nominal load of 3.4 ohms with no problems. Again, the main problem with a low impedance load fed by a generally unfiltered signal is current. At Brandon's GTG, running the Peavey amp in 2 ch into 2 ohms each (7,500W rated) and the SpeakerPower amp (8,000W rated) into the SI-24 dual 2 ohm VC caused both the amps to shut down in 2 ohm operation. If we had had the A14K and run it in bridged mode into both coils in series to a nominal 4 ohms, we could easily have sent the cone into orbit or worse before anything became a problem for the A14K.

 

We custom machine a piece of 5/8" thick solid PVC to fit the front recess to mate with the front panel and to accept the double aluminum honeycomb grill with the air filter sandwiched between them. The front panel is laser cut 1/4" aluminum with solid aluminum custom handles.

 

 

The price is set at $1,699.00 plus shipping for those interested. I know the DIY crowd is mostly a bang-for-buck and I get that. But, I've gone through the AAs, Marathons, QSCs, Crowns and various and sundry "clones" for more than a decade. The A14K is in another league and is really the only amplifier I've used that can actually provide enough stable power to meet the grueling demands of powering a full BW system like Raptor System 3 at reference level in 4k cubes.

Nice   I can imagine that dealing with the mindset of many chinese manufacturers must have been 'challenging'; seemingly many have a 'that will do' attitude!

 

The price seems reasonable to me   Where else can one get that much (reliable) power in a 2U case for that money?  The speakerpower amps are probably the closest comparison but IIRC they are something like double the price over here in the UK.  (3ll3d00d may be best placed to comment as he picked one up recently!)   Shipping and taxes will be a bit of a bitch but then we are getting used to it, annoying taxman... lol

 

Would I be right in saying they would be worked less hard on a 240-250v electric network?

 

I have added one to my Want list

[3ll3d00d]

The sp1-6000-rack is about $2k and the sp2-12000 about $3k, the former comes in at about £1600 landed in the UK.

 

What is the heat/noise output from the amp like? Also how big is it? I notice you are in NC, I should try and swing another trip to our office in Cary

[3ll3d00d]

It's a shame we are all so far away from each other, it's good to meet up and do some listening!  If anyone's over in the UK then let us Brits know and I'm sure we could get some meets sorted out   3ll3d00d is probably the nearest to me so I'm hopeful we can get together at some point for some critical listening of each other's toys!

I think we're basically next door neighbours by US standards If you struggle with REW then I could probably pop over one weekend soon if you like.

[MemX]

The sp1-6000-rack is about $2k and the sp2-12000 about $3k, the former comes in at about £1600 landed in the UK.

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

I think we're basically next door neighbours by US standards If you struggle with REW then I could probably pop over one weekend soon if you like.

haha  I think you're right  

 

I have REW planned this saturday (to escape a day trip out with the missus's family ) so will let you know how it goes!

[Bossobass Dave]

There are, of course, positives and negatives to every design choice, especially once you cross the rubicon.

 

I have gone back and forth with the Chinese engineers with this amplifier about heat vs self noise (cooling fans). These particular group of guys are sharp as a tack, so don't let anyone fool you with the stereotypical remarks about their incompetence and care-less attitudes.

 

The amp is 60-70% efficient. If you do the math, that's still a lot of energy lost to heat, thus the increase in heat sink area and additional fan. Of course, I had to convince them of the difference in apps between a HT sub amp vs a pound all night pro sound amp because they do not want failures in the field. That's a far cry from the claim that they just don't care.

 

I drive all of my speakers with pro amps and all of them have fans, so the sub amp is just another amp in the rack. I just don't see fan noise as a problem during playback and would segregate the amps if I did. These amps are not the sort I would lay on a shelf under a CC speaker in open air. IMO, no pro sound amp is, fan mod or not.

 

The bottom line is that I believe we've found the perfect blend of cost, size, weight, frequency response, power, stability, self noise and looks.

 

Others may and inevitably will disagree. There's no avoiding that in any case.

 

The amp is a standard 2RU.

[laugsbach]

I know I have mentioned to Bosso that I thought his system would be the end game for me...I am in for the Raptor System 3!

 

I will send you an e-mail as well...  

[MKtheater]

Hey Bosso,

Can you mod sanway amps to your specs for a charge as well? I have always loved your design and stacking in the corners firing up and down is the best.  I have talked to you before about PVC and such but never pulled the trigger.  I am glad Adam is happy.  Adam, build a riser and the tactile feel goes up! I equate it to feeling a big wave coming at you on a dock(concrete floor), now get into a boat and feel the same wave!

[MemX]

Bosso,

 

Don't hate me - being a pedant is what I do best at work...

 

 

 

So having established that...  some quick (!) comments on the website:

 

 

<snip>

 

(Sent by email instead!)

[MemX]

I know I have mentioned to Bosso that I thought his system would be the end game for me...I am in for the Raptor System 3!

 

I will send you an e-mail as well...  

Nice!!

[3ll3d00d]

Paragraph below that one, I think 'orients' should be changed to 'orientates' as I'm not sure 'orients' is a proper word? lol

I believe that's because you're English not American, orientates vs orients being a case of us being separated by a common language

[Bossobass Dave]

M,

 

Can you send that info via e-mail so as not to completely jack Adam's thread?

 

thx

[MemX]

Done!  Let me know you've got it safely and I'll edit the post.

[Madaeel]

Hey guys I put up the pics Elena took of the basement the week before Dave came. When the weddings calm down for her I'll ask her to take a couple wide shots with the Raptors in there.

 

James no can do on the riser as my ceiling height where the couch is is too low. Plus honestly I don't need one. I feel more bass than I've ever felt before. The Raptors are capable of waves of bass through everything in that room. Ask Dave and PAul.