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The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)

Bass Movies Bass Movie Measurements Deep Bass Movies Bass Waterfall Graphs Bass Graphs

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#1061 nube

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 04:04 PM

John, I figured you must be making wavs of the sound mixes.  That makes sense.

 

I can't say I have the cash to buy some software to create wav files that sum all the channels of a sound mix, but is there some free way to do it?  I'd gladly start pumping out graphs, if so.

 

As to that Art of Flight 1-2hz stuff, and examples of it in other movies, who would the sound designers and mixers be catering to by placing that stuff in seemingly odd places where there are no higher frequency effects that correspond?  Essentially nobody can reproduce that stuff. 

 

That brings me to a question about the measuring methodology.  I see a pretty consistent slope down to 2 or 3hz in all the PvA graphs, but then many jump straight up to 1hz or DC.  Intuitively, I find it hard to believe that this stuff, which will be largely filtered out by DC blocking caps in everyone's equipment, is worth judging as part of the sound mix, especially if it's a rare blip that has no corresponding higher fundamental content. 

 

From 1 to 2hz is a whole octave, but who can reproduce it?  Can even rotary subs do so, when the signal chain for everyone limits or essentially removes those signals?  Should it, thus, be considered as part of the movie's bass content on which to judge?  In the example of Art of Flight, it sure feels like it artificially inflates the movie's score when, otherwise, its extension would only go to 12hz.  While it likely wouldn't change the score much, the Batman:  Under the Red Hood graph is even more egregious looking.  Doesn't that strike you as being a little bit silly?

 

The idea of removing anything on the track from consideration is a slippery slope, but those hockey stick graphs from DC to 2hz don't seem an accurate depiction of the movie's reproducible content.



#1062 FilmMixer

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 05:02 PM

Not only does TDKR sound mix suck, it really sucked imo. 

 

I also tend to see micromanagement as a bad thing, and perhaps it's the cause of the shitty mix.  TDKR cost $250,000,000 to produce.  in a $250,000,000 company, there's a reason why CEO's don't oversee the day-to-day operations of mail room clerks or the slaughterhouse butchers - the CEO has no expertise.  There's a reason why the President doesn't oversee individual offices (local, state, or federal) in a bureaucratic administration or department - the Prez don't know shit about what they be doin.  ;)  Hell, would you want them to?  Absolutely not.

 

Nolan isn't even that great of a director; what makes anyone think he's even an adequate sound mixer?

 

Sound mixers aren't mail room clerks.. if you subscribe to the notion that 50% of the film experience is sound, you can understand that directors might not have the expertise to do the actual mixing, but are integral in helping develop the overall soundscape of a given track.

 

A colleague of mine has a good analogy...  our job, as mixers, is to get the ball to the 10 yard line.. the director helps us get it into the end zone...  sometimes they fumble...  

 

While people like CN and others might not produce tracks you like, they are still the ones overly responsible for the overall aesthetic of the film..  to say, or think, that overseeing a mix is micromanagement shows a lack of understanding of how films are truly made, IMO.

 

The mixing stage, with a good director, is handled just like a live set when doing principal photography..  it's not just some technicians spinning knobs....

 

Of course I think of it as an art form, and judging by the vast differences in styles between directors, sound editors and mixers, sometimes it's more apparent that some artists are more talented than others...  but in the end it's all subjective.

 

But to suggest that we should be left alone to our own devices as mixers would leave to homogeneous, sound alike mixes that...

 

IMO that would be really boring.

 

Just my .02.  :) 



#1063 FOH

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 06:32 PM

FilmMixer,

 

Your added perspective here is immensely appreciated, period. It's always a pleasure to see your contributions. I can only speak for myself, however I believe most here mostly understand the bigger picture.  

 

 

 

"but in the end it's all subjective"

 

In addition to the artistic/subjective components, there are technical best practices involved in the process as well. Wherever in the process they've occurred, clearly there have been individuals responsible for inexplicable mistakes that have plagued various releases.      



#1064 Nicke

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:54 PM

FilmMixer.

Did you found out anything regarding the lack of bass of the movie "The Hobbit" ? if i recall correctly you were to investgate that in one of the threads at AVS,thanks in advance.

Nicke

#1065 maxmercy

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:54 AM

FM,

 

I place 100% of the blame of TDKR's sound on CN.  He is the final stamp of approval for everything.  I appreciate that you contribute here, thanks for checking in from time to time.  Hope all is going well at T-AO.

 

Nube,

 

I will discuss how I get the mixed wav in PM tomorrow.  SpecLab does not lie.  Whether it is an unintentional wow or flutter is beyond me.  Most of these 1-2Hz effects are at -20dB, which means the entire track is waving back and forth at 10% modulation at 1Hz.  Intentional?  Who knows.  Only people like FM can answer that.  As far as changing the ranking system?  AoF gets killed in the rankings by relying on highly compressed high level music for its soundtrack, killing dynamics.  It is a record setting low, killing its chances of being a true 5-Star film.  Its extension makes it seem more like a decent film.  But in TF, it is the first time Megs fires his primary gun.  I think it is meant to be there, and that one blast carries a good bit of weight, but who am I to say?  I didn't create the effect, nor mix it into the film; I only report what I find, and give my 2c every now and then.

 

Every objective ranking system will have its problems.  I really enjoyed AoF, felt like I was in a well outfitted club, and some of the snowboarding had me literally shouting 'woohoo!' out loud...it was a fun ride. 

 

 

JSS



#1066 Ricci

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:08 PM

Ughh...

 

A while back I believe Scott mentioned a movie called Triangle over at AVS and said it had good bass and was a good movie...I have started to trust certain peoples reports about what movies are worthwhile...Scott is one. Anyway I looked it up and saw that it was a thriller/horrer movie. I am a big scary movie fan and I feel like that genre in particular has the "potential" for the type of sound I like to hear, but it is often hard to find ones that are actually a decent movie and that also have good sound. What I mean about scary movies is that they can be very dynamic...Creepy, quiet parts to build suspense and very abrupt and loud transients that correspond with events meant to scare the crap out of people. Action movies often get me irrittated with like an hour straight of yelling, generic bomb explosions and repeated gun fire at full volume...I like dynamic contrasts and variations in the effects used.

 

Anyway back to Triangle...So I buy this movie off Amazon based on a couple of guys recommending it in the bass threads and watched it Saturday night. Let me start with this...I thought the movie itself was fantastic. Very dark and twisty with revelations coming all of the way till the end. I really enjoyed the plot. YMMV but I really enjoyed it. That said, the bass in this movie is absolutely redonkulous. It sort of reminds me of Hot Fuzz where it is just plain gratuitous all the time. We are talking about bass louder than most other movies big events just for the ominous "background" :rolleyes: rumbles. And the big events in Triangle are even louder than that. There were 4 parts in particular that stood out to me as bass demo worthy, one involving a storm at sea, one involving a close range ocean liner and the other two later on in the film which I don't remember exactly what was happening on screen, but I plan on rewatching. This is not to mention a bunch of very nice and bass infused gun shots. Now I would not give this movie any awards for bass texture or execution...The bass is brutal and hamfisted a bit IMO. To be honest at times I was literally sitting there with my walls shaking wondering why in hell there is so much bass during a dialog scene... It gets to be almost too much. However when appropriate for big events this movie brings the thunder. Let me put it this way, my woman who watches a lot of movies with me, asked if I had done some tweaking or turned it up louder than normal or something and did not believe me when I told her that everything is set the same as usual.

 

I'd suggest getting this one on the "que"...I am really interested to see the graphs on it and charts for a few specific parts. Mostly it is probably a 25-40Hz bass fest but I felt some other "things" mixed in there as well.

 

So has anyone else here seen Triangle? I'm giving it an easy 5 star for bass-tardism.



#1067 maxmercy

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:08 PM

Triangle is in position 1 in my queue. Hope it didn't get clipped too badly.

JSS

#1068 Ricci

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:58 PM

May be some clipping...thought I heard something in the center a few times but it is hard to say for sure.

#1069 HuskerOmaha

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:56 PM

Just wanted to say Thanks again for having one of the best threads around.

 

Off to watch Olympus has Fallen which nube is raving about and possibly logging onto Amazon to buy Triangle.



#1070 maxmercy

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:45 PM

I'll do OHF when it hits Netflix/Redbox.

 

JSS



#1071 Infrasonic

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:15 AM

Wow. I totally forgot about Triangle. Definitely should be graphed for the list here.

 

Olympus Has Fallen has got a vote from me to get PvA when you can get it. Early graphs suggests it's a 10-30hz monster.



#1072 djbluemax1

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:09 AM


Olympus Has Fallen has got a vote from me to get PvA when you can get it. Early graphs suggests it's a 10-30hz monster.

I'll really curious about this one too. The scenecaps I've seen would potentially make this the first movie I've seen or heard of, where the majority of the loudest LFE content is below the frequencies most theaters can play decently. The graphs seem to indicate the peaks are centered around 20Hz. If that's right, it's a new one for me.

I can totally understand some soundtracks being mixed as filtered 30-40Hz monsters (even if I'm not a fan of it), since the mentality is that theaters don't really go lower so why bother. To craft a soundtrack where the majority of theaters wouldn't be able to do justice to the loudest bass effects though, would be a curious decision.


Max

#1073 wth718

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:31 AM

I'll really curious about this one too. The scenecaps I've seen would potentially make this the first movie I've seen or heard of, where the majority of the loudest LFE content is below the frequencies most theaters can play decently. The graphs seem to indiI can totally understand some soundtracks being mixed as filtered 30-40Hz monsters (even if I'm not a fan of it), since the mentality is that theaters don't really go lower so why bother. To craft a soundtrack where the majority of theaters wouldn't be able to do justice to the loudest bass effects though, would be a curious decision.cate the peaks are centered around 20Hz. If that's right, it's a new one for me.




Max

 

I think The Amazing Spider-Man is another such movie.


 

 



#1074 nube

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:31 PM

Ricci:  Triangle has been graphed over at AVS in this post

http://www.avsforum....0#post_23397680

 

I've tried three or four times to make it through that movie and have always fallen asleep.  I dunno what it is about it...it's supposed to be a good movie, too.

 

Olympus Has Fallen contains a lot of good scenes, and definitely one amazing scene involving the Washington Monument.  That scene lasts for 21 seconds and is really, really hot.  I didn't hear anything ground breaking in the sound design, but it is a good scene nonetheless.  Reminds me of the subway crash scene in Skyfall, except this one seems to have more of everything.



#1075 Ricci

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:39 PM

Thanks for the link Nube. I hadn't seen that...Looks like the 30Hz bass fest I had thought it would be, but I still want to see Max's measurements of it specifically the average level and peak level graphs.



#1076 nube

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:12 PM

After a marathon day getting SpecLab to work, with lots of help from JSS (thanks!), finally a decent graph of Olympus Has Fallen's Washington Monument scene:

 

OHF-Washmon_zps93957e3e.jpg

 

That's purely digital, with no sound card involved.  Lots of loud 1-20hz content, then that big WHAM going to DC at the end.  Craziness.



#1077 nube

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:28 PM

A few more from OHF.  Timestamps/scene names are in the filenames.

 

OHF-Bridgecrash-0645-0712_zps7f322f35.jp

 

OHF-Fighters-2203-2238_zpsf626c0ff.jpg

 

OHF-Planeflares-2445-2505_zps055e20e0.jp

 

OHF-WHFence-2915-2929_zpse17720a2.jpg

 

OHF-WHSteps-3334-3433_zps5afc1b14.jpg

 

OHF-Hydra-012312-012342_zps32007c78.jpg

 

OHF-Sealscrash-012506-012532_zps85903ca7

 

OHF-Hostagecrash-013813-013842_zpseaf5c2



#1078 nube

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:47 PM

Olympus Has Fallen (DTS-HD MA 5.1)

 

Level - 4 Stars (112.3dB composite, 0.2dB shy of a 5 star)

Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.9dB)

Execution - 5 Stars  There's some clipping present, but it's not annoying like the clipping in Immortals.

 

Overall - 4.75 Stars

 

Recommendation - buy.  This one had me on the edge of my seat the whole time.  While barely missing the elusive 5 star rating, it's got the content to go the distance.  An instant classic for subwoofer system demos, the Washington Monument scene is a sub-wrecker.  Don't hurt yourself (or your system) with this one.

 

Here's the PvA:

 

Attached File  OHF-PvA-HighRes.PNG   71.87KB   4 downloads

 

SL scenecaps in the previous two posts above this one.

 

Pretty decent execution - the big stuff had the weight you'd expect - typical action movie fare, but with a lot of very strong content to DC, which is basically unheard of. 

 

Plus, that Washington Monument scene is one of the toughest to reproduce in any movie, any genre, ever.  It compares very favorably to the TIH - Cop Car Smash / HTTYD - Red Dragon Crash scenes in depth and magnitude, but is significantly longer.



#1079 wth718

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:01 PM

Great job, Nube! I told my brother the exact same thing--that was the only scene that made my amps clip beside TIH & HTTYD, except it lasted much longer. Thanks!



#1080 maxmercy

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:09 PM

Holy cow!  That one scene eats up the PvA graph!  Make sure the Offset is zero on that PvA.  It appears too hot at 20Hz, only being a few dB down from dBFS.

 

I'm gonna have to change the first post to describe the new rating system.

 

JSS






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