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The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)

Bass Movies Bass Movie Measurements Deep Bass Movies Bass Waterfall Graphs Bass Graphs

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#241 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:18 PM

Just for clarification..

When you guys post info on the sound designer, and or mixers, you are usually not correctly crediting the right people.. on most of these larger films, there is almost always a couple of people handling different things..

I understand trying to link different films with their crews.. but unless you know the specifics of each film and who handled what, the information is suspect at best in some of the credits you guys list on here and trying to determine individuals marks on any given film.. :)

WOTH was mixed by Andy Nelson and Anna Behlmer.. Scott Stoltz is a production sound mixer (who records on set.)

ALVH was mixed by Ron Barlett and Doug Hemphill.... Doug mixed FX... Harry Cohen and Dror Mohar were the principal sound designers (I mixed the first temp on the film with them)

As a side note, a great resource for those interested in sound for film is Soundworks Collection.. some really cool pieces, going back a couple of years..

http://soundworkscollection.com


This is true for some of the titles so far (I assume you mean WOTW). I mistakenly listed the 'sound mixer' instead of the 're-recording mixer' early on and will update those title blocks as I get the time (it's a LOT of work posting these and updating them is almost as much work). On top of it all, photobucket has completely changed its site and I have the beta version which has been glitchy as hell. Archiving is one of several long term details I'm looking at.

Just as Max has been thrashing a path through uncharted territory, it requires some do-overs along the way.

I'm aware that there are dozens of people involved in the sound of a film, but when there are more than 1 designer or mixer, I look at the films they've worked on in those respective capacities and prioritize. Yes, it will leave some folks out in the cold, but my aim is to concentrate on the top names with the aim of possibly detecting a sonic signature rather than just a track record.

It would be great if someone could do a sound department notes paragraph that I could add to the data for each movie by dropping the text into a template. I'll just say that it won't be me because I have my hands full with the data required for the format as it is.
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#242 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:03 PM

WOTT and ALVH are updated.

#243 nube

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

Inspiring project, guys. I enjoy the mostly objective scoring of each movie, especially the methodology.

The only real thing I have to add is that I think this should become a feature of the DataBass site, and be integrated into the site for posterity's sake. I figure it could be formatted much like Josh's measurements and systems pages. It's more work to update a thread than it is to upload and manage a single page for each movie's measurements and ratings. Plus, with the data you're getting on the levels, JSS, a quick comparison could be made just like the measurements of drivers/systems. I can imagine this would drive a LOT of traffic to the site, though perhaps that's not a good thing (see also: AVS MWB "debates").

As to the bin size and FFT time, perhaps the best of all worlds is to score & graph based on the existing settings (1,1) and then give the opportunity to add points to the subjective rating with different SL settings (say: 4,0.25) to prop up those soundtracks that get shortchanged on the existing ones.

That feels sorta icky to me, though, for a variety of reasons. The first is that I don't think the best bass movies have a lot of transients. Restated, I think we don't feel/hear transients as palpably as we do the sustained effects and, subjectively, the effects most associated with the top guns are sustained. The second is that adding to the subjective rating based on objective data feels unscientific, though I guess I see a bit of that going on in the subjective ratings category already. Third, if you were to add to the subjective rating with (4,0.25) results, would you also be able to subtract from others that look less good with these settings?

There's more, but I am not sure there's an acceptable compromise here. I feel like a couple of trial runs on movies you feel have been shortchanged, along with your scoring rubric for the (4,0.25) settings, might be necessary to end the debate. However, that's a lot of extra time and effort.

Lastly, a comment about the scores so far. TIH is propped up throughout this as being the closest thing to MWB perfection after WOTW. However, when looking at the actual scoring, it appears that 9 is essentially as good, objectively. It missed the levels and dynamics thresholds for 5star by a mere .1 in each category. Just a minor point of contention, but objectively speaking, is TIH better than 9?

Edit: I guess, due to the objective ratings thresholds, 9 actually missed those two categories' 5star ratings by .2 each. Not sure that matters to the point I was making, but there it is.

#244 HuskerOmaha

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:44 AM

I got all excited reading through this after nube sent me over here. I was ready to get my Speclab on until I went to Bosso's site to download.

I have Windows 7 64 BIT.

EDIT: Nevermind, appears it may still work after I googled for a solution and got reassured by others.

Dave-update your site to say it works on 64 bit. I bet there are thousands like me that stopped right there. ;)

EDIT 2: Still reading. Probably my favorite thread on any forum. Ever.

#245 maxmercy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:11 AM

Guys,

I have a little one sick at home tonight, so I will try to get some stuff done this weekend. I think doing PvA at 2Hz and 1/2sec FFT is the best compromise between giving the transients their just due and keeping the strength of the long effects.

Any objections? I'll run through the first few movies I did (the ones that set up the scoring system) to see how the scoring goes.

Also will work on a tutorial that includes how to compensate for roll off for scene caps. For those interested, you will need soho54's audio test DVD available on AVS, as well as SpecLab and Room EQ Wizard from HTShack.

After that tutorial is done, and we settle on FFT settings, a tutorial on how to do PvA graphs will be done.

I got Prometheus today from the 'Flix.......

JSS

#246 mojave

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:01 PM

For the past several years I have analyzed the bass content in movies using JRiver Media Center and various VST plugins. This several advantages:
  • You know the exact dBFS level of the audio at any given spot
  • You can easily see the bass in any channel or the combined bass using bass management
  • You can see if bass management results in greater than 0 dBFS since you can monitor this digitally before the final output
  • There is no rolloff that needs to be accounted for
  • You get the exact same results on any system
There are also some disadvantages:
  • The VST plugins with a high FFT block size don't include a spectrum analyzer. However you can very accurately show maximum and average output. I have verified with soho54's test DVD.
  • The VST plugins with a spectrum analyzer only go to 10 Hz. I have inquired with the developer of one program and since the plugin is also used for live audio, they didn't wan to go with larger FFT's or lower frequencies
  • The VST spectrum analyzers only show 10 seconds at a time.
Since Speclab allows it to receive audio data from other programs (Options > Audio Settings > AD/DA server) I have inquired if JRiver would be interested in writing an output plugin to work with Speclab. Matt at JRiver has shown interest and I am trying to get some more info from Wolf at the Speclab Yahoo Group.

If this works out, one could playback a movie in JRiver and output directly to Speclab without any cables/soundcard/receiver being in the signal chain. This would make scene caps easier and more consistent. With the addition of the dtsdecoderdll.dll file from an Arcsoft trial version, JRiver can decode all audio formats. You can also quickly switch audio streams for comparison purposes.

Is there any interest in this method or suggestions?

#247 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:01 PM

I got all excited reading through this after nube sent me over here. I was ready to get my Speclab on until I went to Bosso's site to download.

I have Windows 7 64 BIT.

EDIT: Nevermind, appears it may still work after I googled for a solution and got reassured by others.

Dave-update your site to say it works on 64 bit. I bet there are thousands like me that stopped right there. ;)

EDIT 2: Still reading. Probably my favorite thread on any forum. Ever.


The results others have had who have W7 64 bit have been iffy at best. Since I don't use W except to measure, I'm not familiar enough with their glitchy OS (don't know how you W guys stand it) to field the e-mails, so I just say it may not work, which is true thus far.

If you can give me a link to a workaround, specific to W7/64Bit/SpecLab, I'll gladly add that to the site.

There are some things you may have to tweak to get the graphs just right, so if you do set it up, ping me with a sample graph and I can tell you what to tweak, if necessary.

Yes, I would love the help!!!

I have a template, so I will need:

Screen caps. (Generally, 3 caps/film, 4 or 5 if the film is loaded with scenes, 5 maximum.
A pic of the beginning of the scene and end of the scene.
Time stamp of the beginning & end of the scene.
Film cover art pic.
Sound designer info.
Re-recording mixer info.
Max's PvA graph.
Max's ratings.

For title block info, I use:

IMDb. Just google the film title with IMDB after it and the link should be at the top of page 1. The site will have the film photo, just drag it onto your desktop. Then, under it will be a link to "see full cast & crew" which will take you to a list of everyone involved. Scroll down to "Sound Department". Find the sound designer, click on his/her name and list other films they've done the SD for. Go back to sound department and look for re-recording mixer, click on the name and find films they've mixed as well.

E-mail Max's stuff, the SCs, pics and title block info to me and I'll drop them into the template and post them. PNG, PDF or JPEG is fine for the SCs and pics.

If I have the film or if I rent the film, I have it nailed, but there are a lot of titles I don't own and don't want to rent or just don't have the time to get to, so help would be awesome for those titles (which will eventually be any I haven't done that Max has already PvA graphed and rated).

#248 maxmercy

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:25 AM

For the past several years I have analyzed the bass content in movies using JRiver Media Center and various VST plugins. This several advantages:

  • You know the exact dBFS level of the audio at any given spot
  • You can easily see the bass in any channel or the combined bass using bass management
  • You can see if bass management results in greater than 0 dBFS since you can monitor this digitally before the final output
  • There is no rolloff that needs to be accounted for
  • You get the exact same results on any system
There are also some disadvantages:
  • The VST plugins with a high FFT block size don't include a spectrum analyzer. However you can very accurately show maximum and average output. I have verified with soho54's test DVD.
  • The VST plugins with a spectrum analyzer only go to 10 Hz. I have inquired with the developer of one program and since the plugin is also used for live audio, they didn't wan to go with larger FFT's or lower frequencies
  • The VST spectrum analyzers only show 10 seconds at a time.
Since Speclab allows it to receive audio data from other programs (Options > Audio Settings > AD/DA server) I have inquired if JRiver would be interested in writing an output plugin to work with Speclab. Matt at JRiver has shown interest and I am trying to get some more info from Wolf at the Speclab Yahoo Group.

If this works out, one could playback a movie in JRiver and output directly to Speclab without any cables/soundcard/receiver being in the signal chain. This would make scene caps easier and more consistent. With the addition of the dtsdecoderdll.dll file from an Arcsoft trial version, JRiver can decode all audio formats. You can also quickly switch audio streams for comparison purposes.

Is there any interest in this method or suggestions?


Yes. But, how does JRMC get the data in the first place? I do not have a BD drive on my POS laptop that runs XP. It would be great if SpecLab could get as direct a feed as possible. But an A/D conversion has to happen due to the possibility of 0dBFS+ with bass management, one that has analog headroom to account for 0dBFS + 10dB (theoretical max).

What I am trying to say is: do you rip the discs then run them in JRMC?

Bosso, I will update the index as I get time. Will do that and work on tutorials this weekend.

Got HTTYD today from the 'Flix. Will check it out.

Ricci, once solid FFT bin widths are determined, any chance we would be able to integrate this data permanently into data-bass.com like the driver ratings, with quick comparos a click away?

Thanks for the enthusiasm to contribute to this thread. We just have to all be able to generate the same graphs so all will be apples-apples. I'm glad we only got less than 30 films in before we decided to question the bin width......

Tonight I'll actually be watching films, so no new data, although I have Speed Racer and SuckerPunch graphed. Both are very low in level with the 1Hz bin width. Not sure if this is due to 'home mixes' or not, but they are both very tame.

JSS


#249 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:18 AM

Hey guys,

Had to share this with y'all; MIB 3. Sheeeesh. Don't bring your subwoofers to this one. I had to check if mine were on.

Reference level at the LP, subs (+/-) 3dB 4-100 Hz:


Posted Image

Introducing; the Bass Thumbs Down Award:



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#250 mojave

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:14 AM

Yes. But, how does JRMC get the data in the first place? I do not have a BD drive on my POS laptop that runs XP. It would be great if SpecLab could get as direct a feed as possible. But an A/D conversion has to happen due to the possibility of 0dBFS+ with bass management, one that has analog headroom to account for 0dBFS + 10dB (theoretical max).

What I am trying to say is: do you rip the discs then run them in JRMC?

You do need a Blu-ray player. Internal ones are around $50 and external are less than $100. You don't have to rip the movie. You can just insert disc and start to play. You do also need software running like anyDVD to remove encryption. Unlike a receiver, JRMC leaves the LFE channel at -10 dB and allows you to increase gain at the subwoofer amp. This preserves headroom and also allows for bass management without 0dBFS+. If it does exceed 0dBfs, then there is clip protection built in and you would see this in the graphs.

#251 Ricci

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:14 PM

Ricci, once solid FFT bin widths are determined, any chance we would be able to integrate this data permanently into data-bass.com like the driver ratings, with quick comparos a click away?

JSS


Anything website related is Kyle's call. He did all of the actual programming and work. I just provided feedback and suggestions. I'm sure we can get something done. It may be awhile though as he already has some projects related to uploading measurement data into DB that need worked out to improve ease of use and he just moved or is still in process of moving right now.

Kyle,
If you get a chance...

#252 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:21 PM

HTTYD:



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#253 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:29 PM

Max, will update when you post the data as I read you have HTTYD. This is one of my favorites and that last cap where the Red Death dragon crashes into the ground never ceases to amaze me. DAY-Ummm :lol:

Look at the variety of effects RT created for this one and the way the effects build to the climax throughout the movie. Simply awesome. It seems Rizzo has mixed many of the movies RT has designed the sound for, and has has one impressive list of MWB.

This one was a pleasure to doc.

#254 maxmercy

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

Have some woodworking to do, tutorial and updating to do, and then if I have time will graph HTTYD today.

This warm weather is allowing me to finish projects I didn't think I would get to until Spring.

As far as the FFT, I will still graph the 1Hz one, and as I get time, or others contribute, we will fill in the 2Hz resolution PHvA graphs.only if some significant differences are noted will the ranking scheme change.

As far as JRMC, if SpecLab will be able to be 'plugged in' to a bass-managed output, I will definitely consider using it, as long as JRMC is not super $$. Not having to correct roll off would be great.

JSS

#255 maxmercy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:21 AM

HTTYD is a ULF monster. It is the second time I have ever recorded above 115dB (WotW is the first). It is at 2-3Hz. Graphs tomorrow. Overall 4.5, if more >50Hz effects would have been used, easy 5 overall.

I can see why you like this one, bosso....

JSS

#256 FOH

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:06 PM

The first time we viewed HTTYD, I was stunned. Not only is the LF effects demanding, plentiful etc, the soundtrack is just superbly executed IMO. In addition to the big 3hz wallops, the nuance and minutia are wonderfully satisfying.

WRT the big finale, it's the scene I often recommend it as just about as demanding as it gets. I also remember the spectros someone put up @AVS, likely Bosso. Ever since I saw those, in addition to recommending the film, that scene etc., I'd include those link to those graphs illustrating just how wicked those effects are.

Wonderful film as well.

Thanks for running those. DAY-Ummm is right.

#257 maxmercy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:16 AM

OK guys, sorry to hold out so long, very busy at work, as it is our recruiting season.

But, I have FOUR for you today. Let's start with the also-rans:

SuckerPunch:

Level - 1 Star (102.77dB composite). 
Extension - 1 Star (30Hz)
Dynamics - 3 Stars (24.44dB)
Execution - 2 Stars - Wow, what a let down. With the visuals in this film, this could have been a monster mix. Instead, in with the also-rans.....

Overall - 1.75 Stars. Another 'could have been'......

Recommendation - Rent only for the visuals, maybe it could be played on mute as a party is going on...


Speed Racer:

Level - 2 Stars (106.32dB composite). 
Extension - 4 Stars (13Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.32) 
Execution - 3 Stars - Decent mix, just not very loud, and filtered. The dynamic range is there, the effects are great, but it just has to be turned up a few dB!

Overall - 3.5 Stars. Not bad. Great visuals, and campy, just like the old TV show. Damn I love the Mach 5. Not fond of the Mach 6.

Recommendation - Rent.

JSS

Attached Files



#258 maxmercy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:19 AM

Now onto some better stuff.

Prometheus:

Level - 3 Stars (108.67dB)
Extension - 3 Stars (17Hz)
Dynamics - 3 Stars (24.87dB)
Execution - 4 Stars - Could have used some more level, but decent overall. Reminded me of the Iron Man films.

Overall - 3.25 Stars. Nice, but not enough to deal with the big boys.

 

Attached File  Prometheus-PvA.PNG   75.34KB   0 downloads

Recommendation - Rent. This is a good film, but has big holes in it. For the best and funniest critique, please read this:

http://www.toplessro...metheus_faq.php

JSS

Prometheus_zpsd9d9e94e.JPG

Prometheus-b_zps12571c09.JPG

Prometheusc_zps17cbe7f4.JPG


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#259 maxmercy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:23 AM

HTTYDTitleBlock-1.JPG

HTTYDPHvA.PNG

HTTYD1.JPG

HTTYD2.JPG

HTTYD3.JPG

HTTYD4.JPG

HTTYD5.JPG

And finally one worth posting about.

How to Train Your Dragon:

Level - 4 Stars (112.3dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (2Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (31.35dB)
Execution - 5 Stars - What FOH and Bosso said.

Overall - 4.75 Stars - Add some effects above 60Hz with some weight and you rival WotW.

Recommendation - Buy, just like the above folks said.  Terrific soundtrack, great film.

Yes, that graph is correct. The signal asks your speakers to play back a 2Hz tone at 117.8dB at one point.



JSS

Attached Files



#260 maxmercy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:25 AM

I am still working on the tutorial, and I will update the first post index as I get time.....

JSS




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